!914 Twin HD Cannon ball request

[silentgreyfello]

Just wanted to add that I in no way think that slojo did the restamping! I have owned a 13 motor myself that had suspect numbers. Who knows who, what, why, and when!

[Chris Haynes]

Just wanted to add that I in no way think that slojo did the restamping! I have owned a 13 motor myself that had suspect numbers. Who knows who, what, why, and when!

If you look at the 1937 UL in the MoCo's collection you will notice that the number boss has been milled and restamped. The number boss is taller on one side than it is on the other. I had a 1937 EL that had received the same treatment. H-D wasn't gonna toss a set of cases over an error. Fix it and sell it. I am sure the number on the boss will match the line bore numbers on the factory list.

[HarleyCreation]

More on 1914-13-15 numbers:

SN# H7762-H

The "L" prefix on the 1915 HD's designates that it was a generator model. If it was a magneto model, then there wasn't a prefix. For example, all 1915 singles were numbers followed by a "J". Twin mag models were numbers followed by a "K". Twin model 11H (generator/single speed) had an L followed by numbers, ending with a "T". The model 11J (generator/three speed) had an L followed by numbers, ending with a K.

I have never seen any documentation that 1914 had any prefixes. I have owned close to ten '14 motors or complete bikes and none had prefixes. I also looked at pictures from about a dozen 1914's and none had a prefix. Further, I checked Harry Suchers book which I find to be pretty accurate for vin numbers (except for 1911) and it does not show a prefix either.

After studying the numbers of the motor in this thread, it is my opinion that H7762-H motor has been restamped at some point in it's life, not only because of the prefix of the H, but there are some problems with the letters/numbers. spacing, and orientation.

Thanks for the clarification. Good info!

I assumed the 1914 "H" prefix number was authentic. And because factory data (in Sucher, etc.) does not list a prefix for 1915 models, altho they were used, I assumed prefixes may have been used in 1914 too.

I started to test that assumption by making a list of known (authentic) 1914 numbers. So far I had one (7410-H) without prefix. However, I also found a 1913 model with a prefix (D712-E). Both were listed as stolen bikes in: Motorcycling, Sept. 6, 1915, p.49.

What is you view of the "D" prefix on the 1913 model?

Also, other early factory data shows 1915 serial numbers with additional prefixes for twins, including: LM, M, T, and LT. All these were followed by the letter "K." They are a mix of Remy & Bosch equipped: (i.e. "L6000K" listed as Bosch equipped twin w/"fast motor" model 11K12H).

So "K" suffix (twin) and "J" suffix (single) would seem to be correct, but possibly the various prefixes are more complicated. There may be a system here (1915), but I have not yet taken the time to sort it out.

Similar additional data for 1914 (and 1913) is not known to me. Wish it was.

Please don't take that as a criticism, but only to better understand this poorly understood and documented subject.

Your thoughts are much appreciated!

[silentgreyfello]

Here is what I have. I haven't seen anything outside this to prove otherwise, but if there is something, I would like to know!

1914: No prefix. Numbers followed by:
CF (model 10A)
DG or G (models 10B and 10C)
EH or H (modes 10E, 10F, 10G)

1915: No prefix on magneto models. Numbers followed by:
J (model 11B and 11C)
K (models 11E/11F/11G)

1915 generator models. L prefix followed by numbers, followed by T (model 11H) and followed by K (model 11J).

There is no correlation between the 1915 Model J (single) and a J suffix, which can be confusing.

1916 was the first year that an "M" was used in the serial number (dsignating twin). If it had an L as a prefix, generator model again. L as a suffix was for the singles. Confused yet?

[HarleyCreation]

The additional 1915 prefix letters I gave I believe to be correct. However, the majority of 1915 bikes might not have had a prefix. Same may be true of 1914 and possibly 1913 models as well.

Please keep an open mind about possible 1914 and earlier motors with serial number letter prefix. Let's just keep digging and see what turns up. The published chart in Sucher is not the whole story about 1914 & earlier numbers.

Here is what I have. I haven't seen anything outside this to prove otherwise, but if there is something, I would like to know!

1914: No prefix. Numbers followed by:
CF (model 10A)
DG or G (models 10B and 10C)
EH or H (modes 10E, 10F, 10G)

1915: No prefix on magneto models. Numbers followed by:
J (model 11B and 11C)
K (models 11E/11F/11G)

1915 generator models. L prefix followed by numbers, followed by T (model 11H) and followed by K (model 11J).

There is no correlation between the 1915 Model J (single) and a J suffix, which can be confusing.

1916 was the first year that an "M" was used in the serial number (dsignating twin). If it had an L as a prefix, generator model again. L as a suffix was for the singles. Confused yet?

[HarleyCreation]

Hey Joe!

Joe,

You have other bikes of this vintage and have studied even more.

What is your judgement on the serial number of "H 7762 H"?

Do you believe the number is original to 1914 or re-stamped at a later date?

Could you please tell us what the crankcase bottom numbers are?

Thanks. Your project is looking good!

[silentgreyfello]

The additional 1915 prefix letters I gave I believe to be correct. However, the majority of 1915 bikes might not have had a prefix. Same may be true of 1914 and possibly 1913 models as well.

Please keep an open mind about possible 1914 and earlier motors with serial number letter prefix. Let's just keep digging and see what turns up. The published chart in Sucher is not the whole story about 1914 & earlier numbers.

I guess I just never have seen any prefixes on 1914 and earlier bikes, but my sampling is VERY small, seeing perhaps 50-75 bikes or so out of the thousands that were built. As for Sucher, there are errors for sure, especially 1911. Is your documentation from MoCo? Could that be part of their "inflate the production" scheme?

[HarleyCreation]

More evidence

I guess I just never have seen any prefixes on 1914 and earlier bikes, but my sampling is VERY small, seeing perhaps 50-75 bikes or so out of the thousands that were built. As for Sucher, there are errors for sure, especially 1911. Is your documentation from MoCo? Could that be part of their "inflate the production" scheme?

Could you tell us what 1911 errors occur in Sucher? That would be good to know.

Yes, my documentation is old H-D. I think the production inflation nonsense came from advertising (our pal Lacy C.); this is internal dept stuff.

Re: prefix letters.

This fell out of a pile of papers this morning by chance.

H-D Dealer, 10-15-1915, list of stolen machines:

1912: six machines listed -- no letter prefix
1913: 17 machines listed -- ditto
1914: 39 machines listed -- six bikes with letter prefixes:
Fxxxx-H
Fxxxxx-H
Axxxxx-H
Fxxxxx-H
Axxxxx-H

I believe the "A" engine was a "fast" motor. I have no clue what the "F" stands for. Any ideas?

Also, my chart for 1914 says SN preceeded by "T" for two-speed forecar. Sucher's chart does not include that info. Otherwise it is similar. Probably Harley put out different data sheets; some more complete than others.

Like you say, maybe your sample was small and just didn't include any prefixes by chance. Of the 39 bikes for 1914 listed above, only six had prefix letters. While none of these are an "H" prefix, it does lend support for it being used as seen on Joe's motor.

We have one 1913 prefix number. Are there more? Was 1912 a prefix year too? When did that practice start?

[silentgreyfello]

1911 numbers

1911 should be the following:

7600-9999 without prefixes. Then, instead of going to 5 numbers mid-year, they went to 100A and up. Singles and twins are bunched in together... no distinguishing from the number what model it is... just where it fell in the production run.

One of my 11's is 8935, which is on the lower side of production. One of the higher serial numbers I have seen for 1911 is my '11 single, 2965A. I have three motors sandwiched in between. Like I mentioned, singles (battery or magneto) and twins don't have their own numbering system. They started that in 1913.

It would be interesting to know what the belly numbers are on Joe's machine. The belly numbers on 1915 don't match the vin. On 1914, they match to a certain point, then got away from that system. Joe, you there?

[DEWGARINC]

joe's computer is down

we'll all have to wait till he gets it up!

[HarleyCreation]

1911 should be the following:

7600-9999 without prefixes. Then, instead of going to 5 numbers mid-year, they went to 100A and up. Singles and twins are bunched in together... no distinguishing from the number what model it is... just where it fell in the production run.

Thanks.

One of my 11's is 8935, which is on the lower side of production. One of the higher serial numbers I have seen for 1911 is my '11 single, 2965A. I have three motors sandwiched in between. Like I mentioned, singles (battery or magneto) and twins don't have their own numbering system. They started that in 1913.

I have a good run of serial numbers for 1909-1911, but only goes to July of 1911. No prefix letters in sight. Only the "A" suffix.

It would be interesting to know what the belly numbers are on Joe's machine. The belly numbers on 1915 don't match the vin. On 1914, they match to a certain point, then got away from that system. Joe, you there?

Interesting point. Do you mean the change was mid-year in 1914 when they stopped matching belly to side numbers or something else?

Previously they thought it important that the motor and belly numbers matched. Then they didn't. I wonder if this change was reflected in how motors were assembled as well?

[DEWGARINC]

13 twin numbers

I have a 13 twin and the belly numbers match

[chas]

When I was there in Dept 842 in 1978 it was a topic of discussion between Wally's mechanics, and riders and Howard's engineers and techs. During one conversation I heard that story too about consecutive numbers not tied to years. If memory serves correct Joe Gieger told us.

[HarleyCreation]

When I was there in Dept 842 in 1978 it was a topic of discussion between Wally's mechanics, and riders and Howard's engineers and techs. During one conversation I heard that story too about consecutive numbers not tied to years. If memory serves correct Joe Gieger told us.

Could you explain a little more about consecutive numbers not being tied to years and what those guys said about it?

Peering into my Harley crystal ball I know that Joe Geiger was a REAL old timer (some 63 years and 11 months at H-D!) He was secretary to the original Bill Harley back to knucklehead days at least and was in charge of all engineering drawings.

Wally must be Waldemar Nienow, in charge of the service dept, correct? But Howard? That's cloudy. Hap Jameson was Howard, but he was gone by then. There was also a Howard Campbell, I think, but not in those depts. Otherwise I'm drawing a blank.

Who was Howard?

I missed talking to Joe Geiger by six months. I knocked on his door and a black gentleman answered and told me that Joe had died six months earlier. There went the oldest surviving individual who knew the internal workings of the engineering dept and a guy who started at H-D in 1918. The feeling of loss on that occasion has never left me.

[chas]

Herbert, yes the Wally Nienow who rode to work every day for 30 years come Hell or high water. Howard was Howard Roth, hired out of Chrysler's test department, he and Norm Cox were let go during one of the 1981 layoffs. The VIN number conversation was in terms of understanding the arbitrary nature in the pre-15 numbering. Sad to say I don't recall any more. And about Joe, I was told he was William Harley's secretary back to 1918. I found it sad also that I never got to talk to him about anything other than his job as a clerk. All that history gone. It was his loss that fueled my sudden realization there was more to HD's history then simply hardware. And why I was furious that HD destroyed all their engineering records and blueprints.