!914 Twin HD Cannon ball request

[HarleyCreation]

Herbert, yes the Wally Nienow who rode to work every day for 30 years come Hell or high water. Howard was Howard Roth, hired out of Chrysler's test department, he and Norm Cox were let go during one of the 1981 layoffs. The VIN number conversation was in terms of understanding the arbitrary nature in the pre-15 numbering. Sad to say I don't recall any more. And about Joe, I was told he was William Harley's secretary back to 1918. I found it sad also that I never got to talk to him about anything other than his job as a clerk. All that history gone. It was his loss that fueled my sudden realization there was more to HD's history then simply hardware. And why I was furious that HD destroyed all their engineering records and blueprints.

I'm not sure I knew that Nienow rode every day like that. A good man to be sure. I think Joe Ryan was another one. I was told he rarely wore gloves, even in winter, and rode his sidecar hard.

Howard Roth is a new name to me. So is Norm Cox. I concentrated on the older guys. Have many tapes that need to be transcribed. Who knows what they all contain.

I agree. It started for me with the iron, but then became a more human story. It's not just the bike, but the guys who dreamed them up, built them, and then rode the wheels off them. Not just the dollar value of a part or the correct thickness of a lock washer. "More than a Machine" isn't a bad way to express it.

You were lucky to know Joe Geiger. Can you describe him? What did he look like? What was his personality?

He could have told us every intricacy of the engineering dept. Stuff that we'll never know now. It boggles my mind how close I came. But I did talk to Petri, Kauper, Spexarth, Mr. Davidson, and many other guys. Good men all.

[chas]

Herbert, To me there were the 'lifers' and the 'transients'. Howard (Dept 842's manager), Norm (head of the labs, road test, prototypes), and I (1 of Howie's Boys) were transients. No wonder we are remembered by few. But all donated some 'spice' to the broth. It was a difficult time, the old nontechnical time was ending, and the modern company emerging. All under the Sword of Damocles of being dumped by AMF.

Joe was in his mid 80's by the time I met him. He was a quiet-friendly, man, polite, not given to bold talk, modest. Bald as a cue ball, mid-sized average weight.

I got a chuckle out of your "More Than a Machine" motto HD used when I was there. Many at HD at the time would reply, "Less Than a Motorcycle".

Yep I could kick myself too when I reflect on what opportunities I missed. But that is water long gone under the bridge.

[talbot-2]

Thanks.



I have a good run of serial numbers for 1909-1911, but only goes to July of 1911. No prefix letters in sight. Only the "A" suffix.



Interesting point. Do you mean the change was mid-year in 1914 when they stopped matching belly to side numbers or something else?

Previously they thought it important that the motor and belly numbers matched. Then they didn't. I wonder if this change was reflected in how motors were assembled as well?

What year did H-D start using "belly" numbers in addition to the motor numbers? Specifically, where are the belly numbers normally located?

[HarleyCreation]

Herbert, To me there were the 'lifers' and the 'transients'. Howard (Dept 842's manager), Norm (head of the labs, road test, prototypes), and I (1 of Howie's Boys) were transients. No wonder we are remembered by few. But all donated some 'spice' to the broth. It was a difficult time, the old nontechnical time was ending, and the modern company emerging. All under the Sword of Damocles of being dumped by AMF.

Interesting way to put it. I've heard stories about AMF days. Some guys actually got teary eyed. Also about the large throw-out of early records like you mentioned. A difficult time to be sure. But you were part of history in the making.

Joe was in his mid 80's by the time I met him. He was a quiet-friendly, man, polite, not given to bold talk, modest. Bald as a cue ball, mid-sized average weight.

From the sound of that Joe Geiger would have been a good interview. Most guys liked to talk about Harley-Davidson. For many it was "More Than a Job." He was so dedicated, Joe G. had to be that way.

I got a chuckle out of your "More Than a Machine" motto HD used when I was there. Many at HD at the time would reply, "Less Than a Motorcycle".

That's funny. I've heard stories about the rows of bikes coming back for repair.

Yep I could kick myself too when I reflect on what opportunities I missed. But that is water long gone under the bridge.

Yeah, me too. I could have started this history stuff back in the 1970s. But it never occured to me that old timers were such a good resource until years later. Still, I did pretty well considering. The earliest guy I spoke to started with H-D in 1919. Another guy started in 1914, but I couldn't locate him in time. Several guys from the 1920s.

[HarleyCreation]

What year did H-D start using "belly" numbers in addition to the motor numbers? Specifically, where are the belly numbers normally located?

Thanks to jurassic and an eBay high bidder, it now looks like belly numbers first began during the 1908 model year.

Look on the bottom of the crankcase; the rounded flywheel shaped part. By knucklehead days the belly numbers were towards the front. Each half has a number which are identical if they are the original matched set. These numbers normally do not match the motor number.

See last issue for a column about Harley serial numbers. It's not comprehensive, but does hit some high points if you're interested.

[Chris Haynes]

Years ago I was speaking with a man working in the Service Department at The MoCo. His name was Al Builder. Al showed me files with every line bore number the MoCo had ever issued. The line bore numbers were in numerical order. To the right of the line bore number was the serial number stamped on that case. Those records are there. If you have any contacts in the Service Department you should have them look at them.

[Carl Olsen]

Does't this discussion about numbers belong some where else, I come to this thread to see Joe's progress on his awsome Cannonball bike. You guys that are talking about numbers are not even involved in the race, please take it somewhere else.
Thanks,
Carl

[HarleyCreation]

Does't this discussion about numbers belong some where else, I come to this thread to see Joe's progress on his awsome Cannonball bike. You guys that are talking about numbers are not even involved in the race, please take it somewhere else.
Thanks,
Carl

You're right, altho the number discussion started because of the "H" prefix number on Joe's bike.

[chas]

Agreed!, I'm pau .... Joe??

[silentgreyfello]

Joe's vin

I am convinced now that Joe's motor has been restamped at some point in it's life. The fonts on at least two of the letters/numbers are not correct, IMO. I am basing this on comparing to many different '14 motors. The skewing of the numbers, spacing, and the fresh, crisp look also play in to my opinion, but the fonts are the one thing that is not subjective.

While checking my photos looking at vin numbers of '14 HD's, I ran across an original '14 with a prefix of F. I stand corrected on my earlier assertion that '14 didn't have prefixes! I guess the memory is starting to go! It would be interesting to see what Joe's linebore numbers are. Joe, you there?

[HarleyCreation]

Joe's "H" prefix motor

I am convinced now that Joe's motor has been restamped at some point in it's life. The fonts on at least two of the letters/numbers are not correct, IMO. I am basing this on comparing to many different '14 motors. The skewing of the numbers, spacing, and the fresh, crisp look also play in to my opinion, but the fonts are the one thing that is not subjective.

While checking my photos looking at vin numbers of '14 HD's, I ran across an original '14 with a prefix of F. I stand corrected on my earlier assertion that '14 didn't have prefixes! I guess the memory is starting to go! It would be interesting to see what Joe's linebore numbers are. Joe, you there?

Don't fret, my memory is shot too. I go into the bathroom and can't remember what I went in there for! (John Nowak said that -- Chas. did you know him?)

There was an earlier post saying that Joe's computer was down. Hope it's fixed soon.

Cory, do you know?

I am not an expert on the correct stamps (I need to learn this). But I will agree that so far Joe's motor is the ONLY known indication of an "H" prefix 1914 motor. Your and other (my) documention only shows to date there were "A" and "F" letter prefixed 1914 side numbers.

Yes, Joe's belly numbers are a critical factor is this question. Hopefully we will get to see those and crack this mystery one way or the other.

[Eddie G]

Bike Week

Joe Jessica say's hello.

[Tom Lovejoy]

Hope Joe's 14 project git's back on here, I am missing the up dates.

[Slojo]

Still alive and well

WOW... Looks like this article requires some adult supervision. I have a lot to say yet it will have to wait. Computer is up and temporarily limited. I did spend some time out of town chasing parts and having fun, full report at 11 or when time allows. I will need some time to absorb the conversation and report on all the questions and facts. Thanks for hanging in there in my absence.
Joe 03-08-2010

[Shoe]

Glad to see you finally made it back home Joe....Had a good time in FLA.....Now get back to work....


Shoe

ps:let me know if ya need anymore stickers.....hahaha

WOW... Looks like this article requires some adult supervision. I have a lot to say yet it will have to wait. Computer is up and temporarily limited. I did spend some time out of town chasing parts and having fun, full report at 11 or when time allows. I will need some time to absorb the conversation and report on all the questions and facts. Thanks for hanging in there in my absence.
Joe 03-08-2010