Otis Chandler "1907" Harley in Fall Issue

[HarleyCreation]

Some good stuff posted above!

Before I weigh in, however, I'll post this email about the photo with the 2 old Harleys (strap-tank job on left and solo) that I received from a long-haired hippie and that contains his evaluation of the photo:

The bike on the right seems an obvious twelve. It seems pretty fresh, probably taken at the time.

More interesting, the bike on the left.

Grey paint, 8 lug motor, round fenders, rigid fork.
Looks like an early 07 to me.

Now, tell me what I missed. Have I been took quick in my i.d.

[HarleyCreation]

Re: Photo: Two bikes and one guy.

You guys who thought the newer bike in that photo was a 1912 were correct. And a fine looking machine it was too. I would like to have one of those babys. Still has all the original features of the strap-tank models: single-cylinder; one-speed; belt-drive; improved tensioner; and still got the pedals. But with a good spring-fork for comfort and with styling that when placed side-by-side with that early job clearly is moving into a more modern direction.

That 1912 is one nice motorcycle!

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by Earl


First, let's start with the date.
That looks like a new 1912 Harley on the right, so the EARLIEST the photo can be is from sometime in 1912, to as early as late 1911 if it was a promo shot. The photo could even be a few years later than 1912, but the EARLIEST date is more important to our discussion of the early bike on the left.

Second, since one of the founders is in the picture, here I'm going to assume that it is a Factory photo. But I don't know that for sure. Maybe Herb can share a yes or no to that point.

My belief is that the early bike on the left is probably a 1907 model Harley.

I'll leave it at that for now.

And leave it open for someone else to jump in......

Earl,

You must be psychic or something.

The photo dates back to very late in 1911. It appeared in the December 21 issue of MotorCycling magazine ("the Big One from Chicago").

The caption on the photo in that issue reads: "[Walter] is leaning against a 1912 model. In front of this machine is another, made in 1907."

But why did you say it was a 1907 and not a 1906 or even a 1905? (Note: we now know that there was no 1904 or 1903 model Harley to fit into our equation).

What was the clue that told you it was most likely NOT a 1905 or 1906?

Afterall, when one sees an early strap-tank job like this one with a rigid front fork, one would not normally say 1907 which came with a spring fork.

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by exeric
The face resembles Walter but the body looks a bit portly like Aurthur, but I would say it's Walter. To me it looks like he's giving the early H-D the old stink eye. Like, "who parked this piece of crap right out front." It's the same reaction I get from new H-D dealers when I park my drippy Panhead near their front door. Actually, I would bet that he knew the whole history of that bike since early production was so small. Also, I would imagine that many of their early sales were regional to the Millwaukee area and that the founders followed the performance of those bikes with great intrest. Also, I notice there is a license plate on the '12 but nothing on the '07.

That's really good!

Yes, that is the original Walter Davidson, who was also president of H-D.

If anybody ever writes a book about the 1910-1920 period they should use this photo and put that on it for a caption. Nothing much has changed around Harley-Davidson.

If fact, the photo title in the 1911 mag reads: "Five Years' Evolution." Like: look at the old obsolete stuff we were building 5 years ago: Better buy a new one quick!

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by exeric
Is that a license plate under the seat ?

It is. And I think that the last number on it may be a "3." When I look thru the old 1911 Regs. I find three plates ending with "3" that have bikes with serial numbers in the 19xx range, which if our theory is correct, would place them in the 1907 model year (1907 under #2000).

All three bikes were in Milwaukee, but none of the owners' names ring a bell....

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by scd
There's more than six of us following this wonderful thread. I'm learning, but afraid to raise my hand.
Walter looks alot like my wife's dad, so I always think I recognize him.
Something about those fenders, ....what was that again. Steve

Jump in anytime. We are all still learning about this early period because it was so badly messed in the past with lots of lingering falsehoods, errors, and misconceptions.

Re: Fenders. Early 1905 models apparently had no fenders. They ran naked. Oops! By June they covered them up and did have fenders. So mid/late-1905, 1906, and 1907 models had fenders of a smooth pattern. In 1908 a new wider ribbed fender was adopted. Or "mudguards" as they called them back then. I think that's right.

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by AdminGuy
Great shot Herb- thanks for stimulating some discussion. Love reading your prose in the zine. Great articles! Much thanks.

and ah..... forgury is an art. Sometimes I have to just sit back and admire the art and smile my crooked smile at the really good stuff. Knowledge is the key.

I like the repro models. Less fear of riding them. I'd like an eight valve board tracker - pretty please. I'd ride that puppy on the road.

Thanks admin:

It's a good forum and I enjoy it too.

I like the repro bikes too. Eight-Valver? Well, if you dream, you might as well dream BIG.

Looking at the 1912 model in the photo makes me drool. I do know where there's a good 1913 Harley motor.

Hmmmm......

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by petri
Well I certainly have been following this thread closely with great interest. It's a very stimulating subject and I only wish I could make a cogent comment upon the subject.

But I do have a question. Are there any engineering drawings still around from these early machines? This was a factory; at least at some point it became a true manufacturing facility. There must have been an engineering department and there must have been engineering drawings to be able to manufacture these machines. I realize of course that in the very early days this may not have been a formal undertaking but there must have been some drawings to be able to manufacture more than one machine.

Now I wouldn't be surprised if the first bikes were evolving until this process became established and real assembly line procedures were begun. This could mean the machines differed because the early motorcycles were basically hand built. This would make pinning down dates and comparisons difficult.

So what, if any, early engineering archives exist? When did the process become formalized? Are they available for research today? It seems like they would be a great aid in remaking old parts for any of the old Harleys.

Howard

I've heard various things on this subject.

There is a widespread belief that today Harley's Engineering Dept. still holds blueprints, drawings, etc. going back to the earliest models. I have heard second-hand that people from other depts in the MoCo are NOT allowed to see this old stuff.

Myself, I rather doubt they still hold much if any early model stuff. Over the years I have heard many stories of various "purges" of old records, photos, and drawings, esp. after AMF took over.

Before that it was a different story. Old Bill Harley's personal secretary in the Eng. Dept. was Joe Geiger. Joe started there in 1918 and worked there for some 63 years and 11 months (that's from memory). Joe was in charge of all the old engineering drawings and records.

I've been told that Joe Geiger knew everything about the old drawings and that he could put his hands on anything you wanted.

Did the records go back to the very earliest models? I don't know that, but I believe they did go back a LONG ways until AMF came in.

Sadly, I missed Joe Geiger by six months. I went looking for him around 1990 or so, found his house, knocked on his door and a black gentleman answered. My heart fell. He told me that Joe had died six months earlier.

RIP old timer.

Other guys told me that TONS of stuff got thrown out under AMF. Some of those same guys went dumpster diving and today some of that stuff resides in private collections and also turns up on eBay. It wasn't too long ago that some very early H-D engineering drawings were turning up on eBay. I think that's right. Anyone else remember that?

One old guy told me he scored a linen drawing of an early twin engine out of a dumpster, maybe 1909 I think he said, and that he gave it to a very famous guy we all know by name.

Another guy I knew had some engineering drawings on nice oilskin paper or something. He let have one or two. But they were later, say from the 1960s or so. They also came from a time when they were throwing out tons of old obsolete drawings and records and he grabbed a handful for the heck of it.

LOTS of good stuff was thrown out that would allow one to build replica bikes by the Chinese shipload.

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by Eric @ B.O.S
I've been following this thread with great interest. Great stuff about great motorcycles. Anyway I was looking through the various links everyone posted and went to the Chandler pages. Did you guys see that there are actually 4 pages about the strap tank HD, but only two can be directly accessed because there is an error in the page coding. Anyway the 3rd page shows a picture that I thought would be interesting to post as it seems to show several strap tank bikes.

Here is the picture for those who missed that link:

Eric,

Thanks for turning this up. We'll have to check these bikes out closer....

HEY!

How do you post a photo so it appears on the page as an image instead of as a hot link???

[HarleyCreation]

Check out the far left bike in that colorized dated 1909 photo. I'm not sure what it is without looking thru old model reviews and such, but I'd describe it as an early H-D "clone" bike.

Sure, they set the cylinder more upright but the rest of it is a heck of a close copy.

Harley was already claiming clone bike existed in 1907 and this looks like one to me....dang close.

[exeric]

I believe the first and third bikes from the left are pre-Schwinn Excelsior Auto Cycles. Especially since the picture is of the Chicago police dept. Later on, Chicago was fiercely brand loyal to Excelsior and Henderson.

[exeric]

I recant the third from left bike. It's a Harley, but I still think the first from left is an X.

[petri]

Originally posted by HarleyCreation


I've heard various things on this subject.

There is a widespread belief that today Harley's Engineering Dept. still holds blueprints, drawings, etc. going back to the earliest models. .....snip..........

Without requoting all of the above, a very interesting story and one I presume most of us had no knowledge of. I wonder why a definitive answer to the question of what they still posess can't be had? They may not be willing to share their old designs but you would think that the would not have a problem of replying to the question of what they actually posess. They do have an archivist, certainly he knows. This isn't a race to the moon afterall, it's just history.

As for possibly destroying drawings, that's always a possibility. Studebaker destroyed tons of Packard engineering information when the two companies merged in the 50's. In fact, the joke was that Studebaker kept the plant warm this way. Kind of sad and rather shortsighted.

Plus I know that actual blue prints don't last forever, they fade and blue prints from the early part of the century may not even be readable anymore. Of course, blue prints are made in quantity from originals and the originals ought to be ok even 100 years later.

Too bad about missing Joe Geiger. Now that would have been a resource. But if he had drawings as late as the early 80's I would think that throwing them out would no longer be a consideration.

Somebody at the factory knows and I don't see why they would keep it a secret. They might not want to share but why not admit to having drawings if they still do?

Anybody here that might be able to talk to Willie G or Jean Davidson or the HD archivist?

Howard

[exeric]

I would be very surprised if H-D had any drawings prior to WW2. You can only imagine the amount of technical drawings a company like H-D would generate because in addition to the parts for many different models, many of those parts had multiple operations and revisions, each needing documentation. Also, H-D made almost every part of their early bikes including nuts, bolts, and fittings. In addition to parts documentation, they also had to create tooling and fixturing which is a huge engineering hunk all by itself. I work for an engineering intensive company that pales in size to H-D and you would be amazed at how much our company has archived in 30 years. AMF made practical business decisions when they assumed control of H-D because they were trying to make money. Cleaning house is usually the first order of business in a take-over and old drawings have no practical purpose to fresh eyes. It breaks your heart to think of it, but I'll bet very little of it escaped the garbage truck. The real heartbreaker is that early drawings were done in india ink on linen paper which lasts for generations. I have drawings from the Excelsior company that are still strong and resilient. Getting rid of that stuff seems like a criminal act to us now, but in the late 60's there was virtually no intrest in antique motorcycles. The harsh reality is, no one cared.

[HarleyCreation]

Good discussion about those old drawings, etc.

Mentioning Studebaker reminds me one of my favorite old cars: the 1934 Studebaker "Dictator Six." That baby has good 30s classic coupe lines with nice big running boards to strap your hillclimber Indian or Harley to. Be nice to put in a modern Chevy OHV six for highway use.

One day last summer I was in a small junkyard near Park Falls with my brother and the owner had some old Studebakers lying around and I glanced at a pile of old wheels and on top was an artillery style wheel right off a '34 or so model Studebaker.

Oops, I'm talking about cars again!

Another story I heard about tossed H-D records during AMF is real heart-breaker. As I recall it, Harley used to keep a notecard on every motor they built with pertinent numbers on the card and other info including names and dates when shipped, etc. If your motor ever came back to the factory for any reason the card would be updated. Stuff like that. So if anyone ever had a question about a particular motor Harley could look up that card. I guess it came in handy for dealers and questions about stolen bikes, etc. Those engine cards were retained and there were a LOT of them.

Well, one day came another of the big AMF clean-ups and those engine card files were all piled in a dumpster. The guy I talked to stormed into the office and said: "Hey, we need those records! What if a dealer or somebody wants to know about their motor?" But in typical modern business practice fashion AMF's answer was: Nope, nothing doing, trash em.

That was that!