Otis Chandler "1907" Harley in Fall Issue

[c.o.]

Ah, man I can't wait to get my hands on that book now!!! Cool stuff indeed!!!

[Chuck#1848]

Originally posted by Earl
Thanks Chuck#1848 and Harleyson's for posting those pictures.

Just look at all those 1908 features we can see:

The gas filler is in front of the tank, not on the side like 1907 models.

The gas tank bottom edge is rounded, which was a new 1908 model feature.

The fenders are of the new-for-1908 design.

The muffler has an exhaust cut-out, and there is a lever and rod on the right side of the tank which operates it, which was a new 1908 model feature.

The front springer fork is more robust and sturdier than what we see of 1907 model springers, which were posted by Harley Creation earlier.

And the motor number, Serial #2278, is higher than those two excellent machines we looked at earlier in this thread, Serial # 2037, the David City Nebraska bike, and Serial # 2042, the Otis Chandler machine, both of which we all agreed were 1908 model motorcycles.

Without a doubt, I think we all have to agree that the Henry Ford Museum "1907" Harley Davidson motorcycle is really a 1908 model motorcycle.

So you see, it doesn't matter that even the Factory called it a "1907" model motorcycle, once we put it on the witness stand, nothing can change the fact of what it is.

The Truth is the Truth........................

Earl

I am glad that I was able to help in some small way in this topic till now I have been setting back reading and learning about these old bikes.

The one seen on e-bay a while back,I had followed and in all honesty I thought that it was infact an original paint strap tank bike that some how was preserved all this time with very little wear to it.

Im going to say it again........man...am I getting an education

[HarleyCreation]

Re: H-D 1907 Henry Ford * H-D Enthusiast 4/58

Originally posted by Harleyson's
Friends,

found this in the April 1958 "the motorcyle Enthusiast in action":


http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/1qq5-c-jpg.html

Fritz

http://www.harleysons.de

Thanks Fritz, that's a photo I hadn't seen before.

Apparantly that Henry Ford Museum bike has been called a "1907" model for a long time. But as Earl pointed out and listed, it has ALL the 1908 features that debunk the 1907 label, even tho it was Harley-Davidson itself calling it a 1907!

But that photo suggests a couple more things.

That same 1908 Harley bike (#2278) was at one time owned by the H-D factory because the photo caption says Walter, Jr. is presenting it to the Ford Museum. That should alert us in future that at least one strap-tank job (2278) might show up in older photos of Harley's bike collection before 1958 but not afterwards because it went to the Ford Museum where it resides today.

Sort of suggests that Harley had an extra strap-tank model they gave away. But was it a bike they owned for a long time or had perhaps recently acquired?

I wonder if it shows up anywhere else in earlier photos?

Earl, get out your microscope!

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by c.o.
Amen Earl,,,,,Amen!!!

I'm now sitting here wondering what happened to the motors that were sold as powerplants for boats and such in 1905? Could it be that some of these bikes that are surfacing now with repo parts have motors such as these??? I believe that Herb stated in his Classic Harley-Davidson book that there seems to have been an unknown amount produced.........

I believe that old Bill Harley said that WAY early some of those first powerplant motors were WATER-COOLED. And there is an early photo in the Creation book of what may be a Harley powered boat with what looks to be a water-cooled engine to me.

A very early air-cooled stand-alone Harley engine turned in LaCrosse, Wis. a few years ago. Earl spotted up it in a photo and I went to investigate. I also alerted H-D, Inc. who then snatched it up with nary a word of thanks. Just like my discovery of their very first ad from Jan. of 1905 for just bare motors. It's also in the Creation book and on page 4 in that ["official"] "100 Years of Harley Advertising" book and the yellow highlight around the little 1-inch ad is mine. That should have alerted the boys at Harley that something was amiss with the traditional "built-3-in-1903" myth.

If the first ad was just for bare motors and the firm was a "Motor" company but the date was already 1905, perhaps that stuff about building and selling whole motorcycles in 1903 and 1904 was too good to be true and probably wasn't.

Like somebody wrote when reviewing the "100 Years of Harley Advertising" book (I think it was Girdler in Cycle World), the first ad from 1905 is 98 years old, which is close, but no home run!

Yes, the truth is the truth....

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by Earl


And don't forget the one that may have been fastened to a bowling alley finishing machine !!!
(See page 85 of "At the Creation")

Good grief! I forgot all about that one!

Can you imagine how history would have been different if the "boys" thought that bowling alley polishers was the hot ticket for their motors and not for motorcycles?????

I went snooping around the University of Wis. in Madison looking for that thing, but didn't turn it up. But it wouldn't surprise me that in some attic or basement it is still lying around gathering dust...

[HarleyCreation]

I haven't been around too much lately and there's a good reason for it.

I took some of your guys' advice and scored a LONG interview with one of the original club members. I am now transcribing the taped interview into my computer which is a terribly long and torturous process. You gotta listen to the tape and type at the same time, but you can't keep up with the talking (least I can't), so you gotta stop the tape, reverse it about a million times, and resume typing in tiny bits and spurts. It takes forever!

The interview/article will appear in the Club mag.

But this guy is fascinating. Not only did he meet the original Arthur Davidson right before Arthur was killed, but he went on to become pals with Mr. Honda too plus at one time he was a top Triumph dealer! He also owned like 300 antique bikes over the years. He's old, but his mind is sharp and he's got a million stories, altho he tends to jump around as different things come to mind.

What is great about this guy and the interview is that he is not your modern suppressed, anal-retentive, scared-to-talk type expert authority, but jokes and laughs in a very relaxed no-holds-barred manner and tells all. That's the attitude I like because having FUN is what motorcycles are all about.

You guys asked for stories from the old timers and this is one of them. Too bad I can't include some of the more racy stuff, but if I do my part you'll like it because he's good and really entertaining!

I know somewhere on the tapes he talks about sitting around the campfire many years ago with other early club members and talking about Harley's origin and that something smelled bad about the "official" version of events. Maybe I'll give you guys a sneak preview when I run across it.

You non-members reading this should join up to get the mag because this is really good tell-all stuff from an industry insider's point of view that you won't find anywhere else.

Back to work....

[Harleyson's]

In the June 1935 issue of Harley-D's "Enthusiast" mag, the SAME photo from late 1911 appeared.

Herb,

HNY 07 !

Are you sure in the June 35 ?



Hope to see you - AMCA-Meet in Dinkelsbühl, Germany

Bavaria in January 07: No Snow - Sunshine only


Fritz
www.harleysons.de



www.harleysons.de

[exeric]

Herb, I've always wondered why anyone in the early days would buy an H-D motor for marine use when Ole Evinrude was in Millwaukee and focused on marine applications. Was it an economic consideration, or the reliability of the H-D motor? A boat seems like a very hostile environment for such a motor. I'm sure that in later years when motors outlived their frames, and early motors were made obsolete by better designs, it was common to put a working engine to any number of bizarre tasks. Take a guess Herb, but what percentage of early H-D motors found themselves in non-motorcycle applications.

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by exeric
Herb, I've always wondered why anyone in the early days would buy an H-D motor for marine use when Ole Evinrude was in Millwaukee and focused on marine applications. Was it an economic consideration, or the reliability of the H-D motor? A boat seems like a very hostile environment for such a motor. I'm sure that in later years when motors outlived their frames, and early motors were made obsolete by better designs, it was common to put a working engine to any number of bizarre tasks. Take a guess Herb, but what percentage of early H-D motors found themselves in non-motorcycle applications.

I'll take a guess and say that "some" early H-D motors were used in non-MC applications. That's a nice dodge ain't it? But they were still offering stand-alone motors up to at least 1908 and called it a "buckboard" engine for homemade cars or anything else you wanted to apply it too.

One wonders if maybe the Harley-Evinrude connection didn't go deeper than what we've discovered so far. The Harley 1905 letterhead said "reversible propellers" which leads one to suspect that maybe some of the stuff they were selling early-on was actually made by somebody else? Maybe Ole?

Old Arthur Harley Davidson (Arthur's son) told me a family legend saying that way way back they made an agreement with Ole that Harley-Davidson would not build boat motors and Evinrude would never build motorcycles. How that fits into Harley's early "reversible propellers" and marine engine stuff I'm not sure....

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by Harleyson's
In the June 1935 issue of Harley-D's "Enthusiast" mag, the SAME photo from late 1911 appeared.

Herb,

HNY 07 !

Are you sure in the June 35 ?

Hope to see you - AMCA-Meet in Dinkelsbühl, Germany

Bavaria in January 07: No Snow - Sunshine only

Fritz
www.harleysons.de

www.harleysons.de

Oh oh! Fritz caught me!

I went back and checked. On the back of my photo of the 1907&1912&Walter, it says Enthusiast June 1935, p.22 and I got that from my photo notes in Notebook #22. However, going back to photocopies of June '35 Enth. I see that Mother Gunderson is on that page, not the photo of Walter and 2 old bikes.

Does anybody have a good run of 1935 issues? Maybe you can find the photo and give us the correct issue and page number. It's got to be there somewhere. It sort of looks like I only shot pix out of the Jan. & June 1935 issues at that time. Good to know correct issue and page if we ever need to use the photo & caption in a story about funny dated bikes.

This is why it's good to have several brains working on this stuff at the same time. When errors creep in, the other guys might catch it.

Kein Schnee eh? Heh, we only have 1 cm here and it rained on New Years Eve!

Welt Heisung....

[Earl]

QUOTE]Originally posted by HarleyCreation



But that photo suggests a couple more things.

That same 1908 Harley bike (#2278) was at one time owned by the H-D factory because the photo caption says Walter, Jr. is presenting it to the Ford Museum. That should alert us in future that at least one strap-tank job (2278) might show up in older photos of Harley's bike collection before 1958 but not afterwards because it went to the Ford Museum where it resides today.

Sort of suggests that Harley had an extra strap-tank model they gave away. But was it a bike they owned for a long time or had perhaps recently acquired?

I wonder if it shows up anywhere else in earlier photos?

Earl, get out your microscope! [/QUOTE]

I think we should ALL get out our microscopes and put our collective thoughts together when it comes to looking at Factory photos and motorcycles, especially the early line-up shots.

Oftentimes, I think we're awe struck, and don't really see what we're looking at. Remember to ask the question.......What do we know for sure???........

For example: The Factory line-up photo from a 1938 enthusiast doesn't show a 1906 model machine. But the 1953 enthusiast line-up photo does show a 1906 model. Years ago, when I was able to see the "1906" model motorcycle in person when it was on display at York, it just looked like a thrown together parts bike. Does anybody out there have some good photos of that machine to post? My scanner is still not doing well, so I can't contribute any photos at this time. But I think a group analysis of the harley Factory "1906" would be of benefit to this thread.

And Herb, maybe you could add your opinion and knowledge of the early Factory line up of machines.

[Harleyson's]

1906 in 2004

Friends,

here's a Shot from the Antique Bike Room in 2004

http://www.harleysons.de/SV400049.JPG


Fritz

[Harleyson's]

The Enthusiast March, 1939

From The Enthusiast, March 1939, Page 23

[23JDCA 808]

Enthusiasts on eBay

I am new here but am fascinated by this thread. It was the main reason I joined.
Issues of The Enthusiast are on eBay. Feb, March and April of 1935 are there now, if you need to fill out your library. ..bill

[Harleyson's]

Golden Anniversary Number September 1953

From The Enthusiast, September 1953, Page 2









Click on: Bild in Orginal Größe anzeigen - Fullsize !