Otis Chandler "1907" Harley in Fall Issue

[HarleyCreation]

I've been thinking about that replica "1903" Harley that was for sale on eBay. (I say "1903" because that's how the bike was advertised, but actually there was no 1903 model Harley. The bike as constructed looks similar to an early 1905 "Model 1" Harley.)

Anyway, the ad claims this to be a "...Rare Investment Quality Motorcycle..." However, I question that statement. How can a replica bike be an investement? To my way of thinking an "investment" is something that increases in value over time by its desireable intrinsic nature and by its rarity.

Early Harleys built in Milwaukee that have original parts certainly meet those criteria, but does a replica bike? That seems doubtful when in future we will almost certainly see more and more of these replica bikes being produced. With greater numbers the price of them should go down and not up based on the law of supply and demand.

Afterall, these early strap-tank Harleys are relatively simple in construction. If a person were to go through all the trouble of reproducing the parts of an old bike, why just reproduce one? Why not make a few dozen spares of each part? The added cost would not be that much greater and you could start a nice on-going business for yourself turning out replicas. We see it all over with clone bikes of modern Harleys. Why not a new clone bike industry for the much more rare early models?

If we see this happen and early replica bikes proliferate, how much of an "investment" will these first high-buck ones end up being?

Opinions?

[c.o.]

I'm in total agreement with your comments Herb. How could a new (old-lookin) motorsickle command the same high dollar that the original piece does? I'm sure the replica market could flourish with early desireable makes. It's a lot like the new car markets. New products are being introduced with old names to encourage a nostalgic buyer. But it still isn't the orginal Dodge Charger...etc..etc...

I'd be curious to hear results of your potential trip to chat with Factory folks. The more I read on Harley history the more I realize that there is a lot of misinformation out there.

I just picked up the Harley-Davidson Reader the other day. I enjoyed your chapter:

You early Harley guys are slowly influencing me. My Indian brethern are going to be questioning my loyalties

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by c.o.
I'm in total agreement with your comments Herb. How could a new (old-lookin) motorsickle command the same high dollar that the original piece does? I'm sure the replica market could flourish with early desireable makes. It's a lot like the new car markets. New products are being introduced with old names to encourage a nostalgic buyer. But it still isn't the orginal Dodge Charger...etc..etc...

I'd be curious to hear results of your potential trip to chat with Factory folks. The more I read on Harley history the more I realize that there is a lot of misinformation out there.

I just picked up the Harley-Davidson Reader the other day. I enjoyed your chapter:

You early Harley guys are slowly influencing me. My Indian brethern are going to be questioning my loyalties

Hey, come on over. The early Harley crowd is an elite group. There's only like six of us...

The chapter "Cracking the Harley Code" in that Reader book turned out quite well. It didn't pull any punches either but then why should it? Like the Big Book dude once said: "The truth is the truth."

I've got nothing at all against replica bikes. Only that they should be recognized and marked as such like reproduction guns are. In fact I greatly admire the skill and genius of modern guys who can do that sort of work. Plus it gives us examples of bikes where originals are extremely rare or no longer exist at all that we know of. The recreated Gagan-Pennington "Motor Cycle" is a perfect example. (Did he ever get that thing running?)

BTW: I took my auto driver's test at age 17 in a 1968 Dodge Charger. It was my sister's and her husband's car. Very cool. Too bad they didn't keep it. (Okay, I promise that I'll never talk about cars here again!)

[LouieMCman]

I would like to make one comment and again I know nothing about board track racers. But it seems they to are coming out of the wood work. Did they really make that many or are a lot of them manufactured by the seller to bring a higher profit? A couple days ago there were two Indian's and a Racycle board tracker on Ebay. Any comments from those in the know?

[c.o.]

I've always focused mostly on Indians, but these early H-D's are intriguing!! Thanks for the invite into the group there Herb!!

Louie, I think that there have been quite a few boardtrackers built around early engines over the years. Being that they were quite simple as far as construction went I think that it's easier to build a racer out of an early bike than it is to put together a bone-stock original. Most of us are aware of the majors that produced them. Herb may know how many Harley made. But I am of the opinion (of course I could be wrong) that there are probably more now than back in the day. More Harley's and Indians for sure anyway............ Pick up that copy of the Harley-Davidson Reader if you get the chance. It's pretty interesting........

[HarleyCreation]

I can't think of ever seeing complete production numbers for Harley racers. Just little hints and drabs now and then. I do know in a general way how authentic engine numbering should run.

We're becoming more aware of increasing numbers of possible/probable repro bikes coming out of the woodwork on a daily basis. Anyone who frequents swap-meets knows that engine survival is far more common than complete motorcycle survival. Given time, talent, and incentive that bare motor can serve as a basis for a replica road bike or even a "racer."

There are lots of excellent factory photos of racing bikes to go by. Consider too that for many people an eBay bike with a racing label carries a premium for bigger bucks than a common ho-hum road model. They often look cooler too. From a profit standpoint there seems to be incentive to build a "racer" around a road motor. And the way guys blindly blow money on eBay most wouldn't even know the difference.

Anyone remember a couple years ago here and that supposed "1908" Harley racer on eBay that turned out to be built mostly out of 1950s bicycle parts and assorted junk? When we tried to warn the bidding "winner" he got mad at us and thought we were trying to steal the bike away from him! And that was an obvious fake.

[HarleyCreation]

Hah! You thought this topic was dead didn't you??? Well, here's another photo of an early strap-tank Harley single to give it a new lease on life.

This old photograph has a curious background and a perfect example of how deceptive and tricky our study of early Harleys can be.

I'll post two photos: First the entire scene and then a close-up of the older bike. Anybody want to wager a guess of the year this photo was taken? Then give us the model year of the two bikes? Especially the older one on the left?

Also, where was the photo taken and who is the guy in the photo?

When you give your opinion of the older bike's model year please tell us why you think so based on the bike's features.

Obviously this is an old and authentic strap-tank Harley seen in an older photopraph, but one taken some years after the bike was built.

That should be enough clues to make a start!

[HarleyCreation]

Okay, here's a closeup of the older bike on the left. There are several visible features on it that give clues & evidence of its model year.

But which model year based on those visible features including style/type of fork, fenders, motor, tanks, and other equipment?

Being a strap-tank Harley, it's gotta be either a 1905, 1906, 1907, or a 1908.

Opinions?

Don't be shy now...

(PS: How much more difficult if not impossible this study of early Harleys would be if we still believed in fairy tales and had to fit in two more model years -- 1903 & 1904 -- that we know today never existed in the first place!)

[Earl]

Hey,.....where did everybody go?.........

Whether you're troubleshooting an electrical circuit, or trying to intrepret an old photograph, always ask the following question....

What do we know for sure?

First, let's start with the date.
That looks like a new 1912 Harley on the right, so the EARLIEST the photo can be is from sometime in 1912, to as early as late 1911 if it was a promo shot. The photo could even be a few years later than 1912, but the EARLIEST date is more important to our discussion of the early bike on the left.

Second, since one of the founders is in the picture, here I'm going to assume that it is a Factory photo. But I don't know that for sure. Maybe Herb can share a yes or no to that point.

My belief is that the early bike on the left is probably a 1907 model Harley.

I'll leave it at that for now.

And leave it open for someone else to jump in......

[exeric]

The face resembles Walter but the body looks a bit portly like Aurthur, but I would say it's Walter. To me it looks like he's giving the early H-D the old stink eye. Like, "who parked this piece of crap right out front." It's the same reaction I get from new H-D dealers when I park my drippy Panhead near their front door. Actually, I would bet that he knew the whole history of that bike since early production was so small. Also, I would imagine that many of their early sales were regional to the Millwaukee area and that the founders followed the performance of those bikes with great intrest. Also, I notice there is a license plate on the '12 but nothing on the '07.

[exeric]

Is that a license plate under the seat ?

[scd]

There's more than six of us following this wonderful thread. I'm learning, but afraid to raise my hand.
Walter looks alot like my wife's dad, so I always think I recognize him.
Something about those fenders, ....what was that again. Steve

[AdminGuy]

Great shot Herb- thanks for stimulating some discussion. Love reading your prose in the zine. Great articles! Much thanks.

and ah..... forgury is an art. Sometimes I have to just sit back and admire the art and smile my crooked smile at the really good stuff. Knowledge is the key.

I like the repro models. Less fear of riding them. I'd like an eight valve board tracker - pretty please. I'd ride that puppy on the road.

[petri]

Well I certainly have been following this thread closely with great interest. It's a very stimulating subject and I only wish I could make a cogent comment upon the subject.

But I do have a question. Are there any engineering drawings still around from these early machines? This was a factory; at least at some point it became a true manufacturing facility. There must have been an engineering department and there must have been engineering drawings to be able to manufacture these machines. I realize of course that in the very early days this may not have been a formal undertaking but there must have been some drawings to be able to manufacture more than one machine.

Now I wouldn't be surprised if the first bikes were evolving until this process became established and real assembly line procedures were begun. This could mean the machines differed because the early motorcycles were basically hand built. This would make pinning down dates and comparisons difficult.

So what, if any, early engineering archives exist? When did the process become formalized? Are they available for research today? It seems like they would be a great aid in remaking old parts for any of the old Harleys.

Howard

[Eric @ B.O.S]

I've been following this thread with great interest. Great stuff about great motorcycles. Anyway I was looking through the various links everyone posted and went to the Chandler pages. Did you guys see that there are actually 4 pages about the strap tank HD, but only two can be directly accessed because there is an error in the page coding. Anyway the 3rd page shows a picture that I thought would be interesting to post as it seems to show several strap tank bikes.

Here is the picture for those who missed that link: