Otis Chandler "1907" Harley in Fall Issue

[Earl]

Originally posted by HarleyCreation



But why did you say it was a 1907 and not a 1906 or even a 1905? (Note: we now know that there was no 1904 or 1903 model Harley to fit into our equation).

What was the clue that told you it was most likely NOT a 1905 or 1906?

Afterall, when one sees an early strap-tank job like this one with a rigid front fork, one would not normally say 1907 which came with a spring fork.

Back to my statement/question.....

What do we know for sure?

The motor has 8 studs holding the case together. I'm not aware of any period 1906 photos that show a 1906 model motorcycle with an 8-stud motor. So that would date the motorcycle as a 1907 or 1908 model.

The bottom of the gas tanks appear to have a sharp bottom edge ala 1907 model tanks, and NOT a rounded bottom edge, which was introduced for 1908 model machines.

The fenders do appear smooth on this machine, BUT, they also appear lighter in color than the core machine gas tanks. That fact could point to possible replacement fenders, as the finish of painted parts in close proximity to each other is not the same. Because of this, we wouldn't use the fenders as a determining factor to model year. For example, if the fenders were missing, we wouldn't call this machine a 1905 model, now would we? Remember, Herb has dated this photo to be from late 1911, and a lot could have happened to his bike since it left the Factory.

Yes, this bike is appearing with only a rigid fork, BUT, once again,... What do we know for sure?

Harley introduced a spring fork with their 1907 model motorcycles. That spring fork was a Sager attachment, which according to the ads, was a simple add-on to any bicycle or motorcycle. The Sager fork licensing arrangement with Harley is documented in "At The Creation". The Sager ad is also shown on page 104.

We also know that Harley introduced a stronger unit with beefier springs for model year 1908.

Now why do you think that is??

Could it be because the Sager units were pushed to their limits by the ever increasing speeds of the early motorcycles, and maybe broke a little too often?? That's my opinion.

And what do you suppose the rider did when the springer broke? Perhaps they'd take of the springer, and the rockers, which were both add-ons, and just left the rear rigid fork, reattached the fender, and slipped the wheel back in place. In my opinion, that's the most probable reason for seeing a rigid fork on the machine in the picture.

You can see another example of this type of 8-stud motor, with a rigid fork, in "At The Creation". See page 87.

What? You don't have the book? Shame on you !!! Get the book !!!

Any comments??

[scd]

I just gotta say it again. This is fun. Thanks for the teaching.
I'm hooked.

[Earl]

Originally posted by Earl


Back to my statement/question.....

What do we know for sure?

What? You don't have the book? Shame on you !!! Get the book !!!

I just saw this on ebay for all you guys and gals who like to buy things that way and don't have "At The Creation".

Check out item 260067655012

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by Earl


Back to my statement/question.....

What do we know for sure?

The motor has 8 studs holding the case together. I'm not aware of any period 1906 photos that show a 1906 model motorcycle with an 8-stud motor. So that would date the motorcycle as a 1907 or 1908 model.

The bottom of the gas tanks appear to have a sharp bottom edge ala 1907 model tanks, and NOT a rounded bottom edge, which was introduced for 1908 model machines.

The fenders do appear smooth on this machine, BUT, they also appear lighter in color than the core machine gas tanks. That fact could point to possible replacement fenders, as the finish of painted parts in close proximity to each other is not the same. Because of this, we wouldn't use the fenders as a determining factor to model year. For example, if the fenders were missing, we wouldn't call this machine a 1905 model, now would we? Remember, Herb has dated this photo to be from late 1911, and a lot could have happened to his bike since it left the Factory.

Yes, this bike is appearing with only a rigid fork, BUT, once again,... What do we know for sure?

Harley introduced a spring fork with their 1907 model motorcycles. That spring fork was a Sager attachment, which according to the ads, was a simple add-on to any bicycle or motorcycle. The Sager fork licensing arrangement with Harley is documented in "At The Creation". The Sager ad is also shown on page 104.

We also know that Harley introduced a stronger unit with beefier springs for model year 1908.

Now why do you think that is??

Could it be because the Sager units were pushed to their limits by the ever increasing speeds of the early motorcycles, and maybe broke a little too often?? That's my opinion.

And what do you suppose the rider did when the springer broke? Perhaps they'd take of the springer, and the rockers, which were both add-ons, and just left the rear rigid fork, reattached the fender, and slipped the wheel back in place. In my opinion, that's the most probable reason for seeing a rigid fork on the machine in the picture.

You can see another example of this type of 8-stud motor, with a rigid fork, in "At The Creation". See page 87.

What? You don't have the book? Shame on you !!! Get the book !!!
Any comments??

I like Earl's technique when analyzing the strap-tank job in the "2 bikes and one guy" (Walter D.) late-1911 photo. I think he's right on target.

First he zeros in on the "core bike" which I think most would agree is the engine and frame (in that order). Only after narrowing down possible year(s) for the engine does he evaluate other (less core/permanent) features on the bike.

(As an aside, since the engine is the heart of a motorcycle it normally supercedes all else when determining early model years, while keeping in mind, of course, that sometimes a replacement engine might have been installed in a good running chassis so it always pays to double-think yourself so you're not tricked. But on these early jobs I'd wager that frames/forks broke far more often while those big-bearing industrial-like Harley motors just kept "moting" along. Just like the 1904 proto "Neg. 599" Meyer-Sparough bike supposedly did, going 100,000 miles plus without a single engine replacement part -- if you believe early Harley ads -- and is still out there somewhere maybe running on those same original bearings!)

Anyway, based on early photos it's pretty clear that 1905 & 1906 motors were 6-stud and 1907 & 1908 were 8-stud. By that alone Earl narrows it down to the latter two years. Since frames were the same for those years (far as I know) he goes on to examine peripheral features like tanks, fenders, etc. that also point to an 8-stud 1907 model.

I would also add that the bike lacks a muffler cut-out (another 1908 feature) and that the front fender looks shorter just like a 1907 model should look (remember the 1908 fender was both ribbed and extended farther forward). I'm less certain about the differences in color between the fenders and tanks, but in that regard the color of the battery box also seems lighter than the tanks, doesn't it? Optical illusion? Or possible replacement?

As to the incongruity of a 1907 wearing a rigid fork, Earl's explanation is both logical and simple. The 1907 Sager add-on spring-fork was obviously too puny seen by the fact that H-D only used it that one year. If it broke or otherwise got out of whack and if you could just take it off and run the back fork alone that would be the most obvious and likely answer.

What's tricky about this bike is that the rigid fork is so OBVIOUS a feature at first glance. If one doesn't know (or care) about the 6-stud vs. 8-stud motor-year divide, one might instantly (but incorrectly) conclude by the rigid fork alone that the bike MUST be a 1906 or even 1905 model that indeed came from the factory with rigid forks.

But in concluding that he or she would be wrong based on other features on the bike and what model year Harley-Davidson said it was back in 1911.....

[HarleyCreation]

And here's another twist and punchline about that "2 bikes and 1 guy" 1911 photo that I forgot to mention:

In the June 1935 issue of Harley-D's "Enthusiast" mag, the SAME photo from late 1911 appeared.

However, at THAT time in 1935 they described the bike as a "1906" model, probably based upon the fact that it had that very obvious rigid fork.

If a person found that 1935 "Enthusiast" issue and relied on that "1906" mis-identification alone, they would be seriously misled. And yet it was the very same Harley-Davidson Motor Company itself that was wrong.

Fancy that!

[Earl]

Here's another example of a mis-identified strap-tank model Harley that could very well be misleading the public in general.

This machine is on display at the Henry Ford museum in Dearborn.

It has motor Serial # 2278.
The gas tanks have rounded bottom edges, with the gas filler in the front, wide fenders of the newer 1908 design, etc., etc., etc.

Looks like it has all the features of a 1908 model machine.

BUT, it is tagged as a "1907" model motorcycle.

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by Earl
Here's another example of a mis-identified strap-tank model Harley that could very well be misleading the public in general.

This machine is on display at the Henry Ford museum in Dearborn.

It has motor Serial # 2278.
The gas tanks have rounded bottom edges, with the gas filler in the front, wide fenders of the newer 1908 design, etc., etc., etc.

Looks like it has all the features of a 1908 model machine.

BUT, it is tagged as a "1907" model motorcycle.

What's with this?

Just about every 1908 out there (real and replica) is labeled as a 1907 model.

Didn't anyone bother to pick up the 1907 and/or 1908 Harley sales brochures and check them against their bike? As we've seen on this tortured thread, the differences are many and obvious.

But I suppose when the early Harley chronology is already vastly confused by claims of two entire model years that never existed (1903 & 1904), mislabeling 1908 bikes as 1907 models shouldn't come as a big surprise.

Good find. I'll add that SN to my database if its not already there. Earl, did you contact the Henry Ford Museum about their gaffe?

[Earl]

Originally posted by HarleyCreation


What's with this?

Just about every 1908 out there (real and replica) is labeled as a 1907 model.

Didn't anyone bother to pick up the 1907 and/or 1908 Harley sales brochures and check them against their bike? As we've seen on this tortured thread, the differences are many and obvious.

But I suppose when the early Harley chronology is already vastly confused by claims of two entire model years that never existed (1903 & 1904), mislabeling 1908 bikes as 1907 models shouldn't come as a big surprise.

Good find. I'll add that SN to my database if its not already there. Earl, did you contact the Henry Ford Museum about their gaffe?

Yes Herb,
I sent an email to the general comments mailbox of the Henry Ford Museum, trying to clearly and with respect to their machine, state some of the facts that we know regarding 1907 vs. 1908 model differences. With the Holiday weeks, it may take them a bit of time to even read my email. Let's hope that we get at least a response from them. I'm only about three hour drive away from them, and willing to make a trip with all my documentation regarding these early Harley model motorcycles, in order to discuss these issues. It's very important that we use the accuracy of our collective knowledge of these strap-tank Harley Davidson motorcycles to make corrections when the opportunity presents itself, in order to preserve the REAL history for future generations.

Comments??

[c.o.]

You've just nailed it Earl.....It's about preserving accurate history for future generations........Good on ya for taking on such a task....

Herb, I sent ya an e-mail.......my computer has been on the blink for a bit......

[Chuck#1848]

Henry Ford Museum

This reminded me that I believe I had some photos of that bike taken in 1987.
I will try to post them I grew up 3 miles from the Museum and Village.

[Chuck#1848]

Other side

2nd photo of the Henry Ford Museum Bike

[Harleyson's]

H-D 1907 Henry Ford * H-D Enthusiast 4/58

Friends,

found this in the April 1958 "the motorcyle Enthusiast in action":


http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/1qq5-c-jpg.html




Fritz

http://www.harleysons.de

[Earl]

Thanks Chuck#1848 and Harleyson's for posting those pictures.

Just look at all those 1908 features we can see:

The gas filler is in front of the tank, not on the side like 1907 models.

The gas tank bottom edge is rounded, which was a new 1908 model feature.

The fenders are of the new-for-1908 design.

The muffler has an exhaust cut-out, and there is a lever and rod on the right side of the tank which operates it, which was a new 1908 model feature.

The front springer fork is more robust and sturdier than what we see of 1907 model springers, which were posted by Harley Creation earlier.

And the motor number, Serial #2278, is higher than those two excellent machines we looked at earlier in this thread, Serial # 2037, the David City Nebraska bike, and Serial # 2042, the Otis Chandler machine, both of which we all agreed were 1908 model motorcycles.

Without a doubt, I think we all have to agree that the Henry Ford Museum "1907" Harley Davidson motorcycle is really a 1908 model motorcycle.

So you see, it doesn't matter that even the Factory called it a "1907" model motorcycle, once we put it on the witness stand, nothing can change the fact of what it is.

The Truth is the Truth........................

[c.o.]

Amen Earl,,,,,Amen!!!

I'm now sitting here wondering what happened to the motors that were sold as powerplants for boats and such in 1905? Could it be that some of these bikes that are surfacing now with repo parts have motors such as these??? I believe that Herb stated in his Classic Harley-Davidson book that there seems to have been an unknown amount produced.........

[Earl]

Originally posted by c.o.
Amen Earl,,,,,Amen!!!

I'm now sitting here wondering what happened to the motors that were sold as powerplants for boats and such in 1905? Could it be that some of these bikes that are surfacing now with repo parts have motors such as these??? I believe that Herb stated in his Classic Harley-Davidson book that there seems to have been an unknown amount produced.........

And don't forget the one that may have been fastened to a bowling alley finishing machine !!!
(See page 85 of "At the Creation")