Tweet
Re: Response to the pundits
Welcome to the discussion.
I don't know what to tell you. You offer a bike on eBay and don't reveal that it is "mostly new parts" until somebody asks. Then you get mad when somebody brings that up on the forum of a club dedicated to the study of antique motorcycles. Okay.
As I stated, your bike looks very nice. A skillfully done replica bike as it turns out. But from my research using original photos and original literature it appears that you have the wrong model year on it. Your bike has 1908 model features and not 1907 model features.
I have nothing against replica bikes (which are different from "parts bikes.") But in my opinion bikes that are "mostly new parts" should be described as such up front. You bring up Pete Gagan's Pennington replica. If I saw that machine selling on eBay without an up-front acknowledgement of its replica status I would certainly bring up up too and why wouldn't I?
We are here to study the characteristics and discuss the merits of antique motorcycles. My pet interest is early Harley-Davidson. That study has now by necessity extended to replica bikes. Without knowing which bikes are authentic and which are "mostly new parts" only adds confusion to our hobby which obviously you have a deep interest in.
Sorry if I hurt your feelings.
Originally posted by silentgreyfello
I just heard that there was a thread going on regarding the "fake" bike that I have on ebay. I will start from the beginning... this bike has some original parts on it and more repop parts. I was vague in the ebay description for one reason, Mr. Wagner: trademark infringement. Ever heard of it???? While a lot of the parts are new, I didn't want to attract too much attention. It was not to deceive anyone. Second, I have answered the emails of those interested. For here, I will be vague, but if you want to contact me and discuss it, go ahead!
Now, to my bike. It took over ten years on my part and mostly others to make the pieces on this bike. It is what I believe is 100% correct (though mostly "FAKE"). I was at the Nebraska auction to see the Bonger bike in 1993. I flew to Texas in 1999 to take more detailed photos of it. It now resides in a museum in Sturgis. I saw the Calidona bike when Marinico brokered it from Caladona to the guy in NY and long before it went back to be restored by Chandler. They claim that they found some of the orig parts... That is all BS. The bike has some repop parts on it. I don't hear anyone mouthing it. I flew to the HD museum in York, PA to study their '08. Iowa to photo the bike which is now in the JP Anamosa museum. Minnesota to see an orig 1907 with early Sager fork. I have seen other projects, most more complete than mine. I have recorded the serial numbers to make sense of it all. All this to make sure that my "replica" is 100% correct. As for the guy that said mine was not correct about the "modern tank transfers" and the "lower leg being nickeled", he should take a closer look. The tank was painted with a stencil, and then hand striped with red, as the originals were. The lower leg of the rear fork was indeed supposed to be nickeled. (see the Bonger bike). The Chandler bike was incorrectly restored in this aspect. The early photo of Walter on the '07 (others have claimed '06) shows the rear leg completely nickeled, with the early Sager fork. The later Sager, like mine, is nickeled just on the lower portion. As for the carb, it is smooth in portions, rough in others. This is no different than the Bonger bike that has never had anything done to it except the rear fender support replace many, many years ago. Let me tell you, there are many, many bikes at the meets that are not completely original. There are more board track racers now than there were 90 years ago. And for Indian chiefs, well we all know that story too. What about '10 harleys... I know two guys that have 20 between them and lots of replica parts on every one! What about that long-haired hippy that is so well reknowned in the club driving his "real" 05 to Milwaukee, writeups in the mag, racing at the museum in Alabama? You think that is all real? BS. What about the prez of this club and his Orient, Blackhawk, etc. ARE they all real? I KNOW not. I could go on and on, but I don't find fault with these guys, they love old bikes like me, put them together, ride them. It just pisses me off that you have some old crotchety guys looking down on everybody that makes a bike go with either a little or a lot of repop parts. Where do we draw the line? Moral of the story, don't throw rocks in glass houses! But I digress.
I now believe that the Bonger, York, and Anamosa bike are all 1908's based on what I have read here. Ribbed, wider fenders, front fuel fillers (I think this could be a mid 1907 change), later Sager fork. There is what I believe to be a 1907 with the earlier Sager fork, rounded tank with front filler, 8 bolt motor. The bike is 90% complete and all REAL though most of the paint gone. That is why I think the front filler is a mid-1907 change, not Jan 1, 1908. Most companies didn't throw anything away at the end of the year. They used up their inventory rather than waste it. As for the serial numbers of these bikes... ah, the heck with it. Do your own research.
Now back to the auction thing... I read somewhere that I showed up and screwed up the auction and they through me out. That is completely false. First, I did show up at the auction after most were already in on Saturday. NOBODY from the Chandler group even talked to me. After the auction was 90% done, I asked a security guard if I could park my bike near the exit. He said yes. So I parked near the exit. As for my bike bringing down the auction price, well, I don't think that is true either. The bidding went to $352,000 with two car guys being the last bidders. I talked to the new owner of the Chandler bike to see if he wanted pictures of the bike when Caladono owned it. I had some in my truck. He acted as though he didn't care one way or another, but I gave him the photos. He looked at my bike and asked "Why don't you restore it?" He doesn't get the "patina" thing or the original paint thing. He wanted something to put in an empty corner between his airplanes and cars. I am kidding you not! He had no idea what he just bought!! Anyway, if my bike detracted from the bidding, why wasn't there a crowd running to me to buy my bike for 200k or whatever the figure someone brought up, after the Chandler brought $352k? I am waiting for an answer.......... Could it be that not many saw it before the auction? Just maybe?
To end this rambling, I would invite Mr. Waginer to kiss my backside. I would suggest you find out the facts before blowing out bs. I am only an email or phone call away.
Jim Hoffman
AMCA 3507
oldmtrcyc@msn.com
If you have a roster, you have my phone number.
I just heard that there was a thread going on regarding the "fake" bike that I have on ebay. I will start from the beginning... this bike has some original parts on it and more repop parts. I was vague in the ebay description for one reason, Mr. Wagner: trademark infringement. Ever heard of it???? While a lot of the parts are new, I didn't want to attract too much attention. It was not to deceive anyone. Second, I have answered the emails of those interested. For here, I will be vague, but if you want to contact me and discuss it, go ahead!
Now, to my bike. It took over ten years on my part and mostly others to make the pieces on this bike. It is what I believe is 100% correct (though mostly "FAKE"). I was at the Nebraska auction to see the Bonger bike in 1993. I flew to Texas in 1999 to take more detailed photos of it. It now resides in a museum in Sturgis. I saw the Calidona bike when Marinico brokered it from Caladona to the guy in NY and long before it went back to be restored by Chandler. They claim that they found some of the orig parts... That is all BS. The bike has some repop parts on it. I don't hear anyone mouthing it. I flew to the HD museum in York, PA to study their '08. Iowa to photo the bike which is now in the JP Anamosa museum. Minnesota to see an orig 1907 with early Sager fork. I have seen other projects, most more complete than mine. I have recorded the serial numbers to make sense of it all. All this to make sure that my "replica" is 100% correct. As for the guy that said mine was not correct about the "modern tank transfers" and the "lower leg being nickeled", he should take a closer look. The tank was painted with a stencil, and then hand striped with red, as the originals were. The lower leg of the rear fork was indeed supposed to be nickeled. (see the Bonger bike). The Chandler bike was incorrectly restored in this aspect. The early photo of Walter on the '07 (others have claimed '06) shows the rear leg completely nickeled, with the early Sager fork. The later Sager, like mine, is nickeled just on the lower portion. As for the carb, it is smooth in portions, rough in others. This is no different than the Bonger bike that has never had anything done to it except the rear fender support replace many, many years ago. Let me tell you, there are many, many bikes at the meets that are not completely original. There are more board track racers now than there were 90 years ago. And for Indian chiefs, well we all know that story too. What about '10 harleys... I know two guys that have 20 between them and lots of replica parts on every one! What about that long-haired hippy that is so well reknowned in the club driving his "real" 05 to Milwaukee, writeups in the mag, racing at the museum in Alabama? You think that is all real? BS. What about the prez of this club and his Orient, Blackhawk, etc. ARE they all real? I KNOW not. I could go on and on, but I don't find fault with these guys, they love old bikes like me, put them together, ride them. It just pisses me off that you have some old crotchety guys looking down on everybody that makes a bike go with either a little or a lot of repop parts. Where do we draw the line? Moral of the story, don't throw rocks in glass houses! But I digress.
I now believe that the Bonger, York, and Anamosa bike are all 1908's based on what I have read here. Ribbed, wider fenders, front fuel fillers (I think this could be a mid 1907 change), later Sager fork. There is what I believe to be a 1907 with the earlier Sager fork, rounded tank with front filler, 8 bolt motor. The bike is 90% complete and all REAL though most of the paint gone. That is why I think the front filler is a mid-1907 change, not Jan 1, 1908. Most companies didn't throw anything away at the end of the year. They used up their inventory rather than waste it. As for the serial numbers of these bikes... ah, the heck with it. Do your own research.
Now back to the auction thing... I read somewhere that I showed up and screwed up the auction and they through me out. That is completely false. First, I did show up at the auction after most were already in on Saturday. NOBODY from the Chandler group even talked to me. After the auction was 90% done, I asked a security guard if I could park my bike near the exit. He said yes. So I parked near the exit. As for my bike bringing down the auction price, well, I don't think that is true either. The bidding went to $352,000 with two car guys being the last bidders. I talked to the new owner of the Chandler bike to see if he wanted pictures of the bike when Caladono owned it. I had some in my truck. He acted as though he didn't care one way or another, but I gave him the photos. He looked at my bike and asked "Why don't you restore it?" He doesn't get the "patina" thing or the original paint thing. He wanted something to put in an empty corner between his airplanes and cars. I am kidding you not! He had no idea what he just bought!! Anyway, if my bike detracted from the bidding, why wasn't there a crowd running to me to buy my bike for 200k or whatever the figure someone brought up, after the Chandler brought $352k? I am waiting for an answer.......... Could it be that not many saw it before the auction? Just maybe?
To end this rambling, I would invite Mr. Waginer to kiss my backside. I would suggest you find out the facts before blowing out bs. I am only an email or phone call away.
Jim Hoffman
AMCA 3507
oldmtrcyc@msn.com
If you have a roster, you have my phone number.
I don't know what to tell you. You offer a bike on eBay and don't reveal that it is "mostly new parts" until somebody asks. Then you get mad when somebody brings that up on the forum of a club dedicated to the study of antique motorcycles. Okay.
As I stated, your bike looks very nice. A skillfully done replica bike as it turns out. But from my research using original photos and original literature it appears that you have the wrong model year on it. Your bike has 1908 model features and not 1907 model features.
I have nothing against replica bikes (which are different from "parts bikes.") But in my opinion bikes that are "mostly new parts" should be described as such up front. You bring up Pete Gagan's Pennington replica. If I saw that machine selling on eBay without an up-front acknowledgement of its replica status I would certainly bring up up too and why wouldn't I?
We are here to study the characteristics and discuss the merits of antique motorcycles. My pet interest is early Harley-Davidson. That study has now by necessity extended to replica bikes. Without knowing which bikes are authentic and which are "mostly new parts" only adds confusion to our hobby which obviously you have a deep interest in.
Sorry if I hurt your feelings.
I see the fellow has literature for '05-'06 too.........
Comment