judging frustration

[T. Cotten]

..
What the heck is wrong with trophys?

Bob!

Trophys do not preserve History.

(I've got a bucketfull if you think you need some.)

"Winning" is what folks think the program is all about,
and vintage motorcycling suffers for it.

....Cotten

[Spag]

Cotten,
I tiptoe into this discussion cautiously to call attention to the AMCA Judging Survey results which appear in the Spring Issue of the AMCA magazine. This survey was conducted to address the criticism directed at the judging program from some quarters to find out how the members actually involved in the program in 2011 felt about it. The response was excellent by the number of returns and the overwhelming majority of participants were satisfied with their experience. Does this mean the system is perfect? Of course not. But I don't think vintage motorcycling is suffering because of AMCA judging which gives the participants a trophy plaque if they earn it based on the judging criteria. Just my thoughts and not a criticism of your point of view.
Richard

[ronald]

I've never had a bike judged, nor have I ever really wanted to as all the bikes I've seen being judged were trailer queens and never ridden or even started unless it was a requirement to be judged that they be started or ridden for a very short loop around the parade ground, not even enough to warm them up. I can see a strict judging class for "as left the factory", only factory installed option packages as required for model. No dealer installed options, PERIOD! These bikes must start easily and be ridden. There is always some argument as to when or if this or that is a legitimate accessory for the model or year or whether it was available early or late that is the reason for the "as left the factory" designation. No one off's or "experimental" bikes. All bikes in this class must have been models offered for sale to the general public. Awards and points for originality would be appropriate. Perhaps a once a year, season ending grand award for the year for the most original bike that has accumulated the most points at the seasons judging's would be appropriate, however to make it "fair" for all participants only the top points scores from five shows would count. There is your "Winners Circle" award, one per year, make it count for something. A "Winners Circle" bike would not be allowed to compete for that award for two seasons after winning once.
I have ridden vintage bikes for years and I've had some nice ones but never one that I felt was pristine enough that it would be eligible for judging as mine were riders. As for everyone else a class for "as ridden right now", but must have correct fasteners and parts for their model and year but with allowance made for normal wear from riding, but must display a good maintenance level, no unrepaired crash damage, no aftermarket replica frames and forks. Motor and frame and fork must match for year and model. These bikes would be allowed period correct accessory parts generally available at a MOCO dealer.
No trailer queens. These bikes must start easily and be ridden and show it with normal wear in the appropriate areas,they must be clean although not professionally detailed. They wouldn't be docked points for minimal amounts of chain lube or normal oil seepage on bike unless the seepage has been left through obvious neglect, nor for worn paint on tanks from riders legs or ?. Fuel system leakage of any sort, excessive tire wear, excessively poor brake performance, any lights that don't work or any other safety issues would be grounds for disqualification or not being able to enter the judging. As for awards, I think an Honorable mention certificate for the top five or so would appropriate. If the owner of a "Rider" class bike wants to step up to the "as left the factory class", he may do so if his bike is accepted by the judging committee as appropriate for that class but only starting the beginning of the next show season.
These are just a few of my opinions on how to make the "Winners Circle" bikes really stand out and to not discourage those that either can't afford to chase that dream or would rather just have fun with a really nice bike and not be upset because his tires got dirty or he got caught in the rain. This would perhaps make the club more fun for new members to join and maybe enter their bike in a class that wasn't "so far out there" and perhaps enjoy some level of honor for their efforts.
You all know that this motorcycle thing is supposed to be fun and we need new blood to maintain and advance the club.
Ron

[T. Cotten]

Richard!

Please read my posts more clearly.
I am attacking the trophy mentality that corrupts the program.

Awards do not threaten History,... People do.

Nearly all of criticisms and complaints about the system can be addressed by changing the format from a contest to a registry.

.....Cotten

[bobdo]

Cotton,
I respect what your saying. I don't think you can control the mentality of people. It takes all kinds of people to make up this world, if we learn to accept that, all are better off. If the AMCA's platform is on preservation & provide an arena for preserved bikes & rider bikes, we can still offer those interested the current judging system of factory correct "trailer queens". I don't mean that to be deragatory, just not my type. Thanks for the offer, but I have no interest in your bucket 'o trophys. What I do have an interest in, is recognition from the respected members of this fine club for what I've accomplished in returning one more old motorcycle to the road. If it just turns a head as I pass by, that's good enough for me, no trophy is necessary. I have a lot of respect for you & countless others in this club. I fully enjoy being a member, this club is highly respected in the motorcycle community. The current judging system is what earned that respect. My ramblings in this thread are only offered as suggestions if not already considered. This forum is important to communicate our thoughts & share our ideas. It's good to hear others like Ron, voice similar perspective.

[tfburke3]

Richard,any thoughts on a data base for winner circle bikes.Not sure how many club members participate in Judging,but I would guess its small % of the total membership.
i would think a database would be great benefit.Maybe add a member to the board who could be resposible for documenting the meets,and winner circle bikes for future refernce,and could be also compensated for expenses.
As far as owners wanting thier bikes to be in a database,it may be a concern for some,but I think anybody who displays thier bikes any where in puplic has lost any contol over where their pictures wind up.
And to have your near perfect example documented for futrue members,a Trophy in itself
.Perhaps membership views on a database could be found out with another survey.
Have Fun
tom

[fillibuster]

Richard,any thoughts on a data base for winner circle bikes.Not sure how many club members participate in Judging,but I would guess its small % of the total membership.
i would think a database would be great benefit.Maybe add a member to the board who could be resposible for documenting the meets,and winner circle bikes for future refernce,and could be also compensated for expenses.
As far as owners wanting thier bikes to be in a database,it may be a concern for some,but I think anybody who displays thier bikes any where in puplic has lost any contol over where their pictures wind up.
And to have your near perfect example documented for futrue members,a Trophy in itself
.Perhaps membership views on a database could be found out with another survey.
Have Fun
tom

I support the idea of a data-base, or some measure of record, for Winners Circle Bikes.
Perhaps this year will be a little different with Saturday judging, making attendance (and participation) much easier for me. In the past it has seemed that the "correct" parts on my parts-projects were a well-kept secret, a mystery, and meant to stay that way (a little "stretched" for emphasis). It has been difficult to discover what brake linkage parts were on a 37 Sport Scout, for instance. It took more than a few swap meets to find the example, and I only catch one or two a year. .. But today we have this forum, which is a resource for the searchers, and a TOOL FOR THE NATIONAL TO ADVANCE THE (correct) PRESERVATION OF ANTIQUE MOTORCYCLES!

I'd be plenty happy to win a jr second. Sr's and Winners Circle builders, you are in a league far beyond my capacity. But I'd like to appreciate more of your work, too. We have to get pretty lucky for you to bring your bike to the meet we are attending. You set a high standard for the rest of us. But for the rest of us to appreciate that, we have to see it (the bike) somewhere. If that were here, and the subject was a 1937 Sport Scout, it'd help me get on the way to that jr 2nd!!

Sarge, for pix, I'd say we don't need that hi-tech rack and trolley yet (unless you're hanging upside down from it, of course!). But I think you've got the idea and the engineering to wing it (on your feet), .. .. and I'm glad you VOLUNTEERED!!

[Carl Olsen]

Ron,
In order for a bike to reach the winners circle it needs to achieve a score 90 plus points for a junior first award, then 95 plus points for a senior award, then maintain at least 85 points to continue the status of winners circle. The reason for the lower score is not only to encourage using and riding the bikes, but also maintaining the machines. Accessories are not docked points as "back in the day" riders liked to personalize there rides as they continue to do to this day. I hoped this information helped shed some light on the judging system and invite you and others to get involved to learn from our experienced judges about all motorcycles in general. These lessons are free and very informative, just take a few hours of your time for something to remember for the rest of your life. When I took over this position I made a goal to put back some fun in this area of the club that has given so much enjoyment to me and get rid of the politics and the "good old boy" mentality that has been a mainstay of the past. I expect to get more scrutiny on bikes that come out of my business, but that's why I put them out there. After all I ought to know what I am doing, I am the chief judge, but if I make mistakes I can always blame them on Matt. The judging arena is not some secret society clothed in mystery, but a tool for all of the AMCA members to evaluate their work and research on their finished projects with the aid of their peers. Even if you have not had a judged or do not intend to have one judged, join a team and learn from your fellow members more about the machines we all have a passion for, after all that is what brings us all together.

See you on the judging field.
Carl

[Sargehere]

I support the idea of a data-base, or some measure of record, for Winners Circle Bikes...

Sarge, for pix, I'd say we don't need that hi-tech rack and trolley yet (unless you're hanging upside down from it, of course!). But I think you've got the idea and the engineering to wing it (on your feet), .. .. and I'm glad you VOLUNTEERED!!

"Ouch!" Phil. What have I done, except advance your concept? I hope the "yet" is serving as your operative word, Phil! I wouldn't make good photos with even more blood pooling in my brain, but conjured that whole scenario only to answer those who think we should create a replicable, constantly-growing library of references of what makes up this-or-that year and brand Winner's Circle bikes of "near perfection."

The camera would have to be hi-def, of course, and the only practical place to take the pictures is at National meets, just after the completion of judging. It's even "do-able," with a considerable outlay for the state-of-the-art camera, along with some simple fabrication of a knock-down, portable, white cloth "studio,' and a volunteer, of course, who attended every National Meet. Is it worth it? How much documentation of our "heritage" do we want or need?

[fillibuster]

"Ouch!" Phil. What have I done, except advance your concept? I hope the "yet" is serving as your operative word, Phil! I wouldn't make good photos with even more blood pooling in my brain, but conjured that whole scenario only to answer those who think we should create a replicable, constantly-growing library of references of what makes up this-or-that year and brand Winner's Circle bikes of "near perfection."

The camera would have to be hi-def, of course, and the only practical place to take the pictures is at National meets, just after the completion of judging. It's even "do-able," with a considerable outlay for the state-of-the-art camera, along with some simple fabrication of a knock-down, portable, white cloth "studio,' and a volunteer, of course, who attended every National Meet. Is it worth it? How much documentation of our "heritage" do we want or need?

Got me smilin', Top! (We always called the first sgt "Top")
For some darned reason, I keep thinking that the answers could/should be in the Foundation. They could use the "feather in the hat", and the material as part of their job description, and we could see them doing something for us (commoners).
..(somewhere, there's an icon to indicate that I mean to be sporting, but I am "poking a skunk" here, too).

But really, I'm not even a buck recruit yet, so ... I'm late for work

[rwm]

lucy and i tried to do this at oley a few years back. nobody wanted to take their bike out from under the pavilion in the rain. we put up a bunch of photos and nobody jumped in with the pionts they got here is a link to some of the bikes
http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/bbo...udging+at+oley

[T. Cotten]

Good grief people.

3-D and even holograms aren't going to make the program scientific. Just kewl.

Science is inclusive of all data, not exclusive.
The majority of vintage motorcycles will never fit one of your pigeon holes, no matter how many more you dream up.
And many of them are gems.

Start a registry for all that wish to roster.
. . . . . . (I didn't say 'for free'.)
It could start as a simple website. (Simpler than this one, anyway.)
The Member presents a profile of his machine, it becomes documented, its future History can be documented,... with updates.
(We are just as responsible for preserving the present for posterity, as we are for divineing the past.)

Then you folks can do your nitpicking and fingerpointing and the rest of those things,
and long after those that care to play for an award have filled a spot on the wall,..
.. and sold the machine for its glory,...
they can still link their friends to it over and over!
Now that's kewl.

....Cotten

[ronald]

Carl,
I recognize your expertise and knowledge as evidenced by the quality of the machines and parts that are products of your shop. You are a also a courageous person to be a target for those opposed to the changes you may propose.
My suggestions were just that and those that follow here are also. I have no agenda, however, I feel that in the interest of originality the "as left the factory" no dealer installed accessories, PERIOD, is appropriate for a historically accurate original machine and a "as sold or ridden" back in the day, was less so as a lot of the "approved" additions and changes to the original machines were significant and as time progressed, not even correct for the year the bike rolled out of the factory. That is why I divided the two types of bikes as I did. After all, I thought that the efforts put forth by the owners or builders of true restoration machines was supposedly originality. I was not being judgmental of the quality of the "as ridden" machines, only that they were or are more of a personal expression and were not truly original. Even though the quality of the build was equal I just don't think they should be judged against each other. If you wanted to judge "as left the factory" machines as Seniors and the "as ridden" machines as Juniors, I don't see a problem with that. You will also notice that I made provision for the now "Junior" machines to move up to be judged as "Seniors", but only at the beginning of a new season if the bike was originally entered in the "Junior" class during the previous season. If some brave soul wanted to begin in the "as left the factory",or Senior class, there would not be a problem with that as long as the appropriate changes needed, if any, were made to qualify for judging in that class. My comments with regard to points accrual during a season in the now now "Senior" class with a requisite number of times being judged and accruing the highest point count for the season as long as the point count was accrued in the same number of judging's for each bike, still stand. Any number of judging's per seasons per bike is acceptable, however, only points from 5 judging's may be applied toward the final point count for the season and the Winners Circle Award as a machine that rises to that exalted status because of its excellence against all challengers. Best of show or some other form of acknowledgement for the Senior class with a best of class for the junior class could be awarded for winning class during the season but only one Winners Circle Award earned per season would be awarded, lets make it truly count! After a second in a row Winners Circle Award for a particular machine, a 2 season mandatory retirement from competing for "The Award" for that particular bike. The owner would be able to compete as often as he or she would like during that moratorium, only not with that particular Winners Circle bike.
We have an organization that is known the world over for its knowledge of and the originality of vintage machines. Lets keep that position and advance that position. Several members have made suggestions as to documentation of original machines, not a bad idea, however that should probably wait until a some of the political and judging problems can be defused or solved. I would also suggest that the cost of some of these ideas and projects be looked at from the cost to the club angle as well or we may be finding that our yearly dues may climb to a stratospheric sum no one can afford.
Just a few ideas, Ron.

[fillibuster]

Ron, quoting you, " of its excellence against all challengers." and your use of the word "compete"

Ron, you say that you are new to the club. Welcome! But perhaps you misunderstand the essence of our judging system. Your work does not compete against other "challengers", or builders. Your bike (and your work) competes against a standard, that of "as left the factory", in the amca national system. Points are accrued according to that standard only.

However, each chapter is allowed some autonomy in the "recognition" categories that they choose to set up. These are evidenced in the mag's meet reports, and some folks enjoy these immensely, as they bring out many interesting examples of machines that vary so much that no one standard can apply, except that of APPRECIATION.

Here's the best part of the deal: just about anything you bring is welcome! It's about the bike.

(How'd I do, Carl? Can I show up with my cowboy hat and cap guns now? I still got 10 rolls of poppers, so I can let you shoot some if you want!)

[Knotthed]

I believe the lack of a "Documented Standard" is the root of some of the greatest challenges the judging system faces and also some of judging particpants frustration.

Let me provide a real life example.

Last year at Wauseon, I walked up to look at a 36 Chief that had just completed being judged. I looked quietly and listened to a conversation with the owner and one of the judges. The conversation brought up was something along the lines of (they told me this last time and now your telling me something else this time........etc......) Without a "Documented Standard" these types of things will never stop.

After, the discussion started to slow down I entered into it and pointed out that the rear brake drum had a grease zerk on it and that I am not a judge or an xpert but that I thought that was incorrect. The judge then agreed that indeed it should not have had a zerk on it. The bad part - this was missed during the judging and the owner will likely get hit up about it next time and be upset because he thought he had fixed all of the issues from last time......and the vicious circle continues.

If a "Documented Standard" is created it can be followed by others. When you are relying on undocumented experience and knowledge tucked away into multiple persons heads there will always be discrepancies.

Go ahead and mock the technology and the picture ideas. It is just one way to document a standard and it so happens that "a picture is worth a thousand words". It is also very easy to share with others in todays age - well at least the 10% or so that the survey says uses this site.

I can tell you that I have learned first hand that my first go at taking pictures of a machine, i was no where close to having enough pictures to capture the details. I have been to several meets since first taking those pictures of that exceptional machine and I have not seen another exceptional example since my first encounter with it.

Maybe someday I will try to put my project back to original destroying it's rich unknown undocumented history, but for now I am just looking forward to getting it running and riding.