judging frustration

[Chris Haynes]

I know of a winners circle bike that has a really bad number job on it. It is a 2nd design VL that carries an extremely early 1st design number on it. Just one example of not all winners circle bikes are correct.

[tomclay]

The Judging process is a joke. I went from a 96 point bike to the low 80's, and everything, I mean EVERYTHING they took off was incorrect. Mine was ordered from the factory as a "Chrome Plate Special" but I got points taken off because of the chrome. Of course the judging is Sunday late morning, we all were locked out of the building at Wauseon during the judging process that year, and by the time I looked over the sheet, everyone left, and nobody was around to get corrections made. Am I Bitter, you bet!

[T. Cotten]

TomClay!

If you want a trophy, and I mean really want a trophy, you have to play the game by somebody elses' rules.

History be damned, of course.

....Cotten

[Sargehere]

The Judging process is a joke. I went from a 96 point bike to the low 80's, and everything, I mean EVERYTHING they took off was incorrect. Mine was ordered from the factory as a "Chrome Plate Special" but I got points taken off because of the chrome. Of course the judging is Sunday late morning, we all were locked out of the building at Wauseon during the judging process that year, and by the time I looked over the sheet, everyone left, and nobody was around to get corrections made. Am I Bitter, you bet!

So, right away you got in touch with the Chief Judge and voiced your complaints, with your documentation, as stated in the Judging Handbook, right? The Chief Judge can overrule anything the Field Judges mark down. And in a perfect world, he would then contact the members of that judging team and improve the quality of judging in the next go-round. Provisions are all there, after 40+ years, for every contingency. No joke.

[Chris Haynes]

[QUOTE=tomclay;132420] Mine was ordered from the factory as a "Chrome Plate Special" but I got points taken off because of the chrome. QUOTE]

What is your documentation that your machine was a "chrome plate special"?

[Panuckle]

[QUOTE=Chris Haynes;132436]

Mine was ordered from the factory as a "Chrome Plate Special" but I got points taken off because of the chrome. QUOTE]

What is your documentation that your machine was a "chrome plate special"?

An order form that shows that his bike could be ordered with this chrome package is all he needs . John

[exeric]

So what is the alternative to AMCA judging? Some topless bars have a bike night, and you can win a trophy, or go to Sturgis where all the real antique experts go. Sorry for the sarcasm but AMCA judging is only as good as the people who get involved with it (and there are very good people in it). . . If you don't like it, get involved. I have to confess that I am comming around to Cotten's thinking on judging, and I have to question why the club even continues it. It's an expensive, time consuming affair that very few members participate in, yet causes as much grief as the Foundation subject. . . There, that should get me in trouble

[Sargehere]

...I have to confess that I am coming around to Cotten's thinking on judging, and I have to question why the club even continues it. It's an expensive, time consuming affair that very few members participate in, yet causes as much grief as the Foundation subject. . . There, that should get me in trouble

Eric! Put on this pointed hat! Go stand in the corner for thirty minutes, and don't pick your nose!

Judging has been controversial ever since it was decided back in the '80s that the club take it "seriously." In the old days of bike-against-bike contests for 'Best Restored" and "Brought Longest Distance to the Meet," things were never contentious. Somebody looked at the AACA autos' points system (after Doc Patt's era, mostly driven by Peter Heintz of Tennessee, in my recollection) and everything basically went downhill from there. Kevin and Robin ran a pretty tight ship, but there were complaints of slipping standards even then.

We're rebuilding a wider cadre of national judges in the aftermath of the Eustis Massacre, Feb. 2010, but nothing occurs overnight in an all-volunteer organization like ours. Don't give up! Don Dzurick is doing a good job, but he needs all the help he can muster to build up a strong core of experienced judges.

[T. Cotten]

Folks,

Before any of you start picking at each other like a pack of Ferengis, let me state my agenda clearly, and let the bull'seye fall no where else.

The judging system is pseudoscience, and the restoration rules alone have destroyed more History than preserved over the last half-century.

My suggestion has already been stated: Roster ALL machines, and record the History that they are making right this minute.
This will at least give a resemblance of legitimacy.

Then you can toss vanity awards around as you please.

....Cotten

[Chris Haynes]

[QUOTE=Panuckle;132437]

An order form that shows that his bike could be ordered with this chrome package is all he needs . John

Most order forms do not list which items are included in a chrome package.

[awander]

Fran Blake's cousin. An impeccable source of Harley factoids. No one is better. He called me and we jawed for an hour. That was only the skin off the top, barely scratched the surface, but I wasn't takin' notes. Sorry, Chris!

Oh, & we also discussed ignition coil polarity as it relates to a pair of electrical theories: the electron theory and the theory of thermionic emission, in automotive wasted spark ignition. (AKA: Why do Tedd's V-Twin repro coils so often fail prematurely?) A: Basically, they fail because they're wired backwards from OEM Harley 6v coils (1930-47 and 48-64), and yes, the locations of the "+" and "-" terminals do matter.)

And after we got off the phone, I did a little internet research and got the kerrect terminology:

Refs:
http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/ignition/ig104.htm
http://www.guy.weatherall.dsl.pipex.com/ht/coil.htm
http://firetrucksandequipment.tpub.c...-14P-1_545.htm

Seem to all agree: Tedds' coils fail because polarity does matter, and backwiring leads to eventual sparkplug failure. Yup.

So, per that diagram, while one plug fires in correct polarity, the other fires in incorrect polarity.

[Sargehere]

So, per that diagram, while one plug fires in correct polarity, the other fires in incorrect polarity.

Sure, I'll respond to your hijack of our discussion of Judging:
See the arrow (pointing down) next to the primary coil in the diagram of the ignition coil? That's thrown backwards in Taiwanese (all you can get) repro-6 and 12 volt "Harley" coils, (would be shown pointing "up") requiring a helluvan effort to push electrons through the (D.C.) secondary coil. That makes a difference, according to 'lecktricul engineers I've consulted. "Like pushing water up hill" was one's quote. I'm not a P.E., but I know Tedd's coils fail far too early and often.

[roadmaster50]

I was never able to visit an AMCA judging event in the US or europe. But here in europe, the so called "charter of turin" was intense discussed among the vintage motorcycle enthusiasts. I don't know if anybody in the US has ever heard of that charter. It was released by the FIVA (Federation Internationale Vehicules Anciens). The US are represented through the Historic Vehicle Association (http://www.historicvehicle.org) in that organisation. The charta can be found under

http://www.fiva.org/EN/Torino/Charter%20of%20Turin.html

Perhaps it is interesing to read for people who were active in the judging process. It's just another point of view.

roadmaster50

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear Roadmaster, try and join us at Geldrop, Netherlands, 9-11 May next year to see the only AMCA-judged meet in Europe. I attended the FIVA annual meeting in Brussels about 5 years ago and they were interested in contacts with the AMCA. Several of our members have been on the annual FIVA motorcycle runs. Because of the number of vehicles, FIVA will be more interested in cars than bikes, and their definitions in the charter seem to relate to what we would call unrestored machines rather than restored ones. In Europe a lot of FIVA activities are about allowing old vehicles to use the roads, and not being swept up in new vehicle technical legislation. Note also that FEMA, a Brussels-based lobbying group, is trying to halt the crazier end of motorcycle legislation such as self-inflating safety suits. Neither FEMA nor FIVA has an exact equivalent in the US.

[D.A.Bagin]

The judging debate has been around for as long as judging has. I have experienced both types, from the "Good 'Ol Boys" selection in the 70s and 80s to the current, "Point system." If I had to choose one over the other, the point system is a better way to go for obvious reasons. I feel it is one way to attract new members that have worked hard toward a factory correct machine. Yes, the system has flaws. But it is the best that we have and probably the best out there overall. As has been said it is only as good as the people that are involved in the process. There are people that think it is great, and there are people that think it is a waste of time. My opinion is that it broadens our appeal to a larger audience. Does it pay for itself? Probably not. Does it chase prospective members away? I doubt it. Does it attract people to come to meets? Probably does, if they are in the process of restoring a similar marque. I feel it is one more way to differentiate our club from other vintage motorcycle clubs out there. There is some appeal to a machine that has documented judging from our club out there on the open market. We see it all the time on auction sites even if we are not supposed to use judging as a way to add value to our machines. You and I KNOW it does, or it wouldn't be mentioned in for sale ads when it comes time to pass on our machine to the next caretaker.