judging frustration

[T. Cotten]

What was supposed to be the purpose of the judging system?

Thanks in advance,

....Cotten

[Chris Haynes]

What was supposed to be the purpose of the judging system?

Thanks in advance,

....Cotten

Simply to annoy you Tom. ;-)

[T. Cotten]

Simply to annoy you Tom. ;-)

I made it into the "mission statement", Chris?

If its purpose is only as D.A. Bagin suggests, and "broadens our appeal to a larger audience", it comes at a great cost to vintage motorcycling.

....Cotten

[Sargehere]

I made it into the "mission statement", Chris?

If its purpose is only as D.A. Bagin suggests, and "broadens our appeal to a larger audience", it comes at a great cost to vintage motorcycling.

....Cotten

You're the only one that thinks so, Tom. You get out of it, what you put into it. It's supposed to be enjoyable.

[T. Cotten]

So it is just for fun, huh, Sarge.

Some of you may still wonder what my problem is.

Its simple.
I am on History's side.

....Cotten

[Sargehere]

History's dead. I mean, by definition, I mean. History is "history," it's over, and lives only in what the historian wants to say about it. You want to participate in motorcycling? Today it's plastic, vinyl, and alloy, ethanol fuel-injected and fly-by-wire. There's no going back.

We live in the past with our clapped-out bell cranks, push rods, open chains and cork and leather because it's comfortable; it's what we like because it's what we're familiar with. You make your own history, Tom. There are no rules. Quit trying to impose your way of remembering what was on others. Everyone has their own memories to chase. It's just to fill our time until the Reaper comes, anyway, Tom. Loosen up!

[T. Cotten]

You are embarrassingly wrong, Sarge.

History is not over, but being made this second. Doh you missed it.

All machines will be Historical soon enough.
The Cannonball makes History every year.

Most machines hold truths that the restoration rules would erase. The rest have already been erased.

If there were a legitimate system, it would take its mandate from recording what History has survived, and what becomes of it.

Computers now make that possible!

....Cotten

[Sargehere]

Embarrassing, if it is, only to you, Tom. There's a thirty-five year gap between now and the machines we turn wrenched upon. Plenty of time is allowed/required to pass between when the bikes we fool with (sometimes quite literally) were new and we show any interest in them. Some people make it their goal to undo whatever modifications happened to their bikes from new to what they look like today; others want to carry on the updating/modernization/modifications and see how far they can take them.

And as far as the Cannonball machines, they're just embarrassing. I mean, with their disk brakes, GPSs and "anything goes," most of them have as much to do with preserving history as a Nitrous Oxide bottle. Just sayin'. The most efficient of them are also the most modified and updated. It gives purpose to some people's extra parts and motors that haven't found any other uses in the meantime, to give life to "what if" bikes. Has little to do with history, tho. Their builders are happy, which is the point.

You seem to take the club for a stuffy, academic "history collection" society. It is, only to a very limited point. Actually, it's a living, breathing motorcycle club; only our machinery is more-or-less old time. Have you looked around? I mean, climbed down from your ivory tower and taken in the broad diversity that is the AMCA today? There's room under the tent for anything anyone can imagine, and someone willing to sell them any parts required to make their dreams come true.

The motorcycle museums, from here to Austria to India, are already well-representative of real-world examples of the early development of internal-combustion two-wheeled self propelled transportation, Tom. The real od bikes must be some place, with a recent national meet awarding "oldest at the meet" to a 1953 model. Our bikes are going the same way as the brass-lamp AACA motorcars. Might as well enjoy it, we're likely the last generation of enthusiasts.

[c.o.]

Seeing as this has somewhat morphed into a "Cannonball" thing... not all of the bikes were heavily modified... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_naTDW4k4M O.K. a new "bigger" gas tank... but overall... An old bike that is un-modified and properly tended to would no doubt in my mind make it cross country. I think a lot of the modifications were in the name of "safety". What's a GPS anyway???? I refuse to use them. A good map and a decent sense of direction has always worked for me.... and I am not judging those who choose their convenience...

Interesting observation on the "last generation" thing Sarge. I believe I'm one step down from you and I was just talking to a young fellow the other day that got real excited when I responded to his questions about early motorsickles. My teenage son can school a lot of modern "bikers" on old iron and Harley and Indian were among my grandsons' first words. There's many other examples... look at what the young Olsen "newlyweds" are doing with the kids at meets. I don't believe all hope is lost.

[T. Cotten]

Sarge,

The AMCA judging rules ARE the "ivory tower".

"Broad diversity" is exactly what an open roster will provide.

Vintage motorcycling is propelled by nostalgia.
You can't have nostalgia without its goddess History, for whom you have expressed contempt.

History is studied with Science.
Science collects as much data as possible, and then makes sense of it.
Instead, our AMCA's restoration dogma conjures a mythical ideal, and then requires that all data be changed to fit.
That is pseudoscience.

The emperor has no clothes, and you play the jester.

....Cotten

[fillibuster]

Sarge, Cory, I have to add:
Several weeks ago my grandson and I viewed and toured an exhibit at the airport, a B-17, a B-24, and a P-51 Mustang. As we crawled through the fuselage of the 17 and the 24 the teenage kid behind me and I were discussing the functions of the crew members during their WWII missions (my Dad flew as crew chief on 40-some missions over Italy). The kid was an encyclopedia of knowledge!
Sarge, we may have been the last fools to throw bales of hay, but we are NOT the last generation to appreciate history, and our old bikes.
Sack-cloth and ashes for you, my friend!

[Chris Haynes]

Sarge, Cory, I have to add:
Several weeks ago my grandson and I viewed and toured an exhibit at the airport, a B-17, a B-24, and a P-51 Mustang. As we crawled through the fuselage of the 17 and the 24 the teenage kid behind me and I were discussing the functions of the crew members during their WWII missions (my Dad flew as crew chief on 40-some missions over Italy). The kid was an encyclopedia of knowledge!
Sarge, we may have been the last fools to throw bales of hay, but we are NOT the last generation to appreciate history, and our old bikes.
Sack-cloth and ashes for you, my friend!

Sounds like you visited the planes from the Collings Foundation. They stop at the Burbank, CA airport during their yearly nationwide tour. Someday I am going to cough up the dough to take the flight in the B-17.
http://www.collingsfoundation.org/menu.htm

[T. Cotten]

While we wait for Sarge to change his costume,..

The AMCA system does not revere History nearly as much as Vanity!

Literally tons and tons of History has been ground to dust chasing beauty, which may or may not have existed in the first place, but all sanctioned and mandated by our "preservationist" organization.

If the AMCA does not provide a legitimate historical motorcycle roster, it is only a matter of time before one takes the lead in the cyberworld. There should be no doubt that the global Indian community will be replacing their needs after dis-enfranchisement of their best judges.

Reconciliation is easy: Burn the old program.
Establish a roster with critical reviews.
Assign awards accordingly, subject to review of course.

Computers make that easy.

Everyone can share the knowledge.
Vintage motorcycling will prosper.

....Cotten

[fillibuster]

Sounds like you visited the planes from the Collings Foundation. They stop at the Burbank, CA airport during their yearly nationwide tour. Someday I am going to cough up the dough to take the flight in the B-17.
http://www.collingsfoundation.org/menu.htm

The mustang ride was only $2500. too bad I forgot my wallet...

[c.o.]

Cotten... I absolutely agree that a roster system would be a good idea. It seems to me that this was brought up a year or two ago, a consensus indicated that it would be a good thing and I guess that was that.