judging frustration

[Chris Haynes]

Phil,
I understand you & probably a few others have discussed this topic, I would think that reinforces the need. I'm not claiming ownership, just throwing in my 2 cents. If we can vote "thumbs up" to pay a professional that would be ideal. I don't know how a pro could make it to all the meets unless you have several or pay well, or maybe just have a pro handle the data base & have locals take the pics. Also, if we're talking about the best way to handle this with less thought on complexity, the database could & should have OP non-restored bikes in the same folder as Winners Circle restorations as a comparison. The emphasis should always be on preservation.

We have a professional. His name is Carl Olsen.

[Sargehere]

Sarge,
Cotten has made it perfectly clear that he does not participate in judging and he has no desire to. personally I find a lot of the technical advice he gives here to be of great importance to anyone building a bike. Whether for show or riding. You may not agree with what he says, but it is his right to express his concerns without being attacked.

Since he does not participate in judging and has no desire to, all of his commentary is based on hearsay. Admittedly, he bases all he thinks he "knows" on customers' complaints he hears over the counter, naturally colored by real-life details of which he has no clue. There's a reason hearsay is not admissible in matters of law, Chris: it's second-hand, incomplete, and usually bullshit.

AND I know this will doubtless draw another ad-hominem response from him upon me, defending his transparentm non-starting opinion of our IM-perfect judging system.

Quixcotten's only purpose in repetitiously commenting on something of which he has no personal knowledge, his same old same old on judging as it is, being an avowed non-starter, amounts only to a desire to hear himself spout off; stir up the honey bucket to instigate responses from others and feed his (insert adverb ending in "ing" here) ego. Just my contribution, but he should be a man and refrain from sewing confusion with his ill-informed opinions-absent-solutions. That's self-discipline. Sure, it's his right, but people usually learn, having lived as long as he has, when they have contributions to make, and when they're just making asses of themselves.

[T. Cotten]

Uncle Chris!

Uncle Carl is the man.
But he must overcome not only harley-centrism, but the broad and entrenched trophy mentality at the core of the problems.

And I appreciate your concern for my right to voice my opinion!
(However, I do not fear that it will be abridged as brazenly as it was upon the other "American" vintage motorcycle forum,.. the one included in your signature.)

The program's problems already cited in this thread are complicated.
But they can all be addressed in a simple matter of a redefined agenda.
I have already posted how this can be approached. In this thread.

....Cotten
PS: And my windy adversary fills my sails!
To be harangued for opposing a system based upon hearsay based upon hearsay is a gadfly's delight.

[redfred84]

Chief Judge Carl Olsen arranged and organized a Japanese Judging & learning seminar at the gorgeous new venue in Florida last month for the National AMCA Meet there. Carl is also an authority on Henderson, besides HDs. No one man can know it all, but Carl is doing his best to get more & more judges the knowledge that they desire, despite what brand of machine it may be.
Another point I have noticed, especially over the last 4 or 5 years or so; Most Judging entrants are not at all trophy triggered, but more into it to learn. Back when speculators were in the game is when we saw some trophy hunters. Most of them have been weeded out now, and we are left with the genuine enthusiasts.
I have found that THE best way to learn about a certain mark, or model, is to join in on the Judging field. But it takes dedication, concentration, time, and a willingness to volunteer, and perhaps catch some flak from "know-it-all" cry babies, who are usually more intent with being in combat most of their lives. Meanwhile, the Judging moves on, and more machines are preserved, while more entrants are satisfied. Call it lipstick on a pig if you wish, but the AMCA Judging survey conducted by Bill Wood is a very good indicator of the facts.
If you're scared, don't Judge.
RF.

[Sargehere]

Well put! Thanks, Fred. A little dose of updated reality rarely hurts, but rather helps to bury old wives' tales/ urban legends/ plain old mis-information. Thanx!

[T. Cotten]

Chief Judge Carl Olsen arranged and organized a Japanese Judging & learning seminar at the gorgeous new venue in Florida last month for the National AMCA Meet there. Carl is also an authority on Henderson, besides HDs. No one man can know it all, but Carl is doing his best to get more & more judges the knowledge that they desire, despite what brand of machine it may be.
Another point I have noticed, especially over the last 4 or 5 years or so; Most Judging entrants are not at all trophy triggered, but more into it to learn. Back when speculators were in the game is when we saw some trophy hunters. Most of them have been weeded out now, and we are left with the genuine enthusiasts.
I have found that THE best way to learn about a certain mark, or model, is to join in on the Judging field. But it takes dedication, concentration, time, and a willingness to volunteer, and perhaps catch some flak from "know-it-all" cry babies, who are usually more intent with being in combat most of their lives. Meanwhile, the Judging moves on, and more machines are preserved, while more entrants are satisfied. Call it lipstick on a pig if you wish, but the AMCA Judging survey conducted by Bill Wood is a very good indicator of the facts.
If you're scared, don't Judge.
RF.

RF!

Forgive me if English is not your native language, like many of our members overseas.
But if you read my post word for word, it is the system that I accuse of harley-centrism, not Uncle Carl, whom I have clearly endorsed.

As an Indian fellow, I should think harley-centrism within the AMCA should be more apparent to you.

Tell your boot-licking "me too" poster that I could not ask for a better foil.
However the AMCA Judging Program needs positive, productive input, not more nails in its coffin, particularly those from within!

....Cotten

[fillibuster]

RF!

Forgive me if English is not your native language, like many of our members overseas.
But if you read my post word for word, it is the system that I accuse of harley-centrism, not Uncle Carl, whom I have clearly endorsed.

As an Indian fellow, I should think think harley-centrism within the AMCA should be more apparent to you.

Tell your boot-licking "me too" poster that I could not ask for a better foil.
However the AMCA Judging Program needs positive, productive input, not more nails in its coffin, particularly those from within!

....Cotten

I love this thread! ..And I really like the Tom and Gerry show! Somehow, I think these two guys are great friends, jousting for our entertainment.
But I also respect their arguments. I like Tom's policy wonkishness because it's relative to the club, and Sarge is a heckuva bare-bones communicator. Now, if everybody in the AMCA was like Sarge, or if all the judges were like Sarge, we'd be screwed! Or imagine Tom and a bunch of junior Tommies running things, oh man! Thing is, we're diversified, and that's a positive, and we need everybody, so why should we discriminately refuse to serve some?

As this is a judging thread, I have limited credentials to opinionate on strictly judging matters. But this is also, quite apparently, a POLICY field, as RF often reveals. To say that policy issues are important would be the year's understatement, so we should be careful in our criticism or intimidation of contrary opinions, especially on a harmless forum. I don't think any of us mean to be subversive towards the club as a whole.

Back to judging, Carl, buddy! I hope to join up, for several reasons, including support (there you go, another rookie liability!). But the policy hitch is the schedule, which outweighs the rest. If I can out-muscle my job demands, ..

[MeanGene]

at the gorgeous new venue in Florida

Jeez, I really hope that was an attempt at humor, if not it would seem to be unnecessary propaganda that will just pick at an already open wound, and had nothing to do with the topic at hand- and leaving it out might have prevented the "boot-licking" comment

[Sargehere]

I love this thread! ..And I really like the Tom and Gerry show! Somehow, I think these two guys are great friends, jousting for our entertainment.

DAMN! Phil's found us out, Tom! Quick, say something else that I can take issue with so's we can go around the barn again. I'm just gettin' warmed up.

Tom's a first class curmudgeon, with his opinions buried in how the club was in the 1960s, but he makes the best damned carb floats on the planet for our old bikes. There's one in every one of the Linkerts in my garage. He knows and I knows not to take any of this too seriously, so nobody need get worried. Tom's the self-titled Horsefly of the Dumpster; he can take it, and so can I. For your, our audience's edification!

But I also respect their arguments. I like Tom's policy wonkishness because it's relative to the club, and Sarge is a heckuva bare-bones communicator. Now, if everybody in the AMCA was like Sarge, or if all the judges were like Sarge, we'd be screwed! Or imagine Tom and a bunch of junior Tommies running things, oh man! Thing is, we're diversified, and that's a positive, and we need everybody, so why should we discriminately refuse to serve some? ...Back to judging, Carl, buddy! (and) we should be careful in our criticism or intimidation of contrary opinions, especially on a harmless forum. I don't think any of us mean to be subversive towards the club as a whole.

Whyn't you tell us how you really feel, Phil? If all the judges were like Sarge we'd have 100 point bikes, when deserved. I know him personally; he doesn't play games and he's been around the club for 40 years.

[tfburke3]

I think creation of a database to document winner circle bikes,especially the unrestored examples would be good thing.The technical challenges would seem to be not the great,if the leadership got behind the idea,and other members felt the same.
Tom

[TimR]

It is amazing, this thread is 10 pages long and not one reply from any owners of "winner circle bikes" have replied as to how they would feel about having their machines becoming part of this data base. Why the silence?

[T. Cotten]

Folks,

Don't just add record keeping.
Start all over with record keeping.

If the program isn't a competition, why are there "winners"?

....Cotten

[Sargehere]

Folks,

Don't just add record keeping.
Start all over with record keeping.

If the program isn't a competition, why are there "winners"?

....Cotten

A constructive comment. Hmmm. 2013, start all over: no previous recognition counts for anything/counts only for being from the (newly designated, "out-dated") "old judging system," and an entirely new system is introduced, open to all 35-plus years' old motorcycles. This will give owners who have just been collecting "repeat Winners' Circle" pins for years (Tom Payne is approaching 100 of um) the opportunity to have their bikes closely re-examined by fresh eyes with more scrutible (def.: "capable of being understood through study and observation; comprehensible.") judging rules, "once and for all." A free-for-all, of sorts, prior scores wiped clean, awarding entirely new numbers, perhaps on a one thousand-scale (to make the new scores easily discernible from the scores earned under the "old system").

All new scores will be "a comparison of the presented machine against a clearly-defined ideal." Whether that be: "Out of the factory door, off-the-showroom-floor," "as ridden in its period," whatever is hammered out.

Along with that, the capture of each eligible motorcycle with a portable, versatile, 360º digital video system. I.e.: Right after judging, roll the bike over here, to this (12-foot or 15-foot diameter, perhaps, round, white-walled portable "studio" structure, with appropriate floodlights) to have a once-over "trip around the block" by a hi-def video camera on a round track, or hanging from an overhead trolley, designed to capture all the detail it can of the vehicle.

File the video with the appropriate data and make the video and written docs available on line.

Think that might satisfy critics? Like was said of the Six-million Dollar Man: "Gentlemen, we can rebuild him. We have the technology. We have the capability to build the world's first bionic man. Steve Austin will be that man. Better than he was before. Better, stronger, faster."

[LouieMCman]

It is amazing, this thread is 10 pages long and not one reply from any owners of "winner circle bikes" have replied as to how they would feel about having their machines becoming part of this data base. Why the silence?

I was lucky enough to buy a bike years ago that with a little effort turned into a 98 point winners circle bike. I would be glad to have it in a data base but as with any new task WHO is going to do it? Maybe we could pay someone like we do the magazine? What about all the travel expenses to every national meet? Another point is that no matter what is documented, some people will always contest it. I had someone point out that my decals were wrong on my original paint bike, I pointed out that I knew of at least three original paint bikes that were exactly like mine and ask for proof of what he said were the right decals, and of course he has not offered any picture proof.

I would also like to comment on all the posts about TROPHY collectors, WINNERS, ect. Are they jealous or just hate the judging system that bad? If so why not try and change in a positive way. I get tired of hearing people piss and moan about stuff and not do anything about it. I could really care less about the trophy's, for me that not what it's about. I do have a few trophies but they are for RIDING in the field events and road runs, not shows. I realize some are hung up on trophy's and will spend whatever it takes to get them. But a lot of people just want to have their bike judged against how it was originally. I must admit though that the Merkel trophy they used to give for Senior award is not real big and fancy but is a pretty cool trophy.

[bobdo]

I keep telling myself, I've contributed enough to this subject I'm bowing out. But sorry, I can't yet.
What the heck is wrong with trophys? I don't have any, but I sure respect what it takes to get one. I'm all for the club handing someone a dust collector in recognition of their accomplishment. It doesn't matter if its a big tower of marble & brass or a piece of paper, its the recognition of the premier Antique Motorcycle Club of America awarding their stamp of approval. One thing I've learned is you can't run anything by committee because you can't please everybody. The best thing you can do is put the right people in place (which you have) & let them do their job. If theres money available to put together a database of "factory correct" bikes, the club should step up & do it. If the entries are dated, the researcher will be able to decide the most current info.
OK, I'm done. Happy Easter folks.