judging frustration

[bobdo]

Cotton,
Nice segway to get back on topic.
I agree with you on the need for a digital database of images & descriptions of correct Winners's Circle or Senior judged bikes as a reference for those hungry for correct information. I'm amazed at the amount of contradictive information out there. Everyone feels strongly about what they've researched to be correct, but often times its based on those "gray" areas. I understand the difficulty in implementing this task. Maybe, as a start, someone can take left / right side digital shots of Winners Circle bikes at judging & post on this site with owners name as reference. Maybe, Senior bikes with a note on what is not correct. In time, it could be expanded to include critical detail images. If we find at a later date, more conclusive evidence of a detail making an earlier bike incorrect, the information could be dated upon entry. I feel the AMCA should step up as the authority on what is correct in the name of historical preservation. Even with good intention, I think damage is done due to misinformation. This may seem like additional work for judges, but if it is allocated to those assisting & learning the judging process, it shouldn't add work. In fact, I believe in time with more correct information available as an AMCA guide, it may ease the load in the future. It would also be invaluable as a study guide for future judges. As great as the AMCA judging system is, I feel in the current digital age, its fast becoming outdated. Just an opinion from someone who has not had a bike judged.

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear Bob, I hope our Chief Judge is listening in, and perhaps preparing a 5-10 year development plan for AMCA judging. I've been judging for 15 years and can see that the centre of gravity of our judged bikes is moving up into the 1950s and 1960s. I was shocked at Oley last year when my 1933 Harley took oldest bike, and the organisers had to keep moving the class markers to pack in all the Sportsters, two strokes, and non-US manufactured machines. We are facing an explosion of Japanese models from 35 years ago, and many new judges need to be trained to apply the Club judging process to newer machines. The last membership survey showed maybe only ten per cent of members participate in judging, but it is a core part of our Club and I know other Clubs envy our judging skills and showroom correct bikes.

[bobdo]

Steve,
I hope Carl (who I have the utmost respect for) & many others listen in. You're right, we are at a fork in the road in terms of bikes "coming of age". My statement was meant only as a way to contribute to a solution, not as a criticism. I have seen in the past similar situations, when you need to act fast. The longer you wait to begin collecting & organizing images & info, the more daunting it becomes. Annually more bikes are entered, becoming an insurmountable task. Kinda like cataloging a hoarders barn while he's at the flea market. Hopefully, more modern motorcycle manufacturers kept records & there are less inconsistencies. Maybe, we can have the owner's or other members email their digital pics of the Winners Circle bikes?

[Chris Haynes]

Judging helps the owner of a machine find out what its inaccuracies are. That way they can be corrected and the machine can make it way to the winners circle. If an owner knows what a judge has marked as wrong is correct and he can document it the judging form will be corrected. That is why it is important to have all of your documentation with you.
I once dinged a man for having the wrong clamps on his intake manifold on his 1964 FL. He whips out his 1958-1968 parts book and hows me the clamps he had were the ones in the book. The problem was the 1968 book was showing the clamps they were selling in '68 and not the ones from '65. Your documentation must be from the year of your machine and not later.

[T. Cotten]

Uncle Carl!

Sorry I missed your call today because I can't hear, I hope it was ordinary business.
Because if it was about this thread, you wouldn't want to hear me either.

The system does not fullfill its mandate.
It does harm to vintage motorcycling.
It succors Vanity to dismiss Science.
It is fatally flawed.

Scuttle it, and build a new ship Captain.

And Uncle Chris!

You just made yourself the posterchild for H-D TunnelVision Syndrome.

Obsessing with faults is not scientific.
Obsessing with everything else is.

How many Historically significant machines, of dozens of marques, are ignored by the program, excluded because they varied from the mythical ideal?


Folks,
Vintage motorcycling needs to be fostered, not judged.
Roster machines with expert commentary, document with validity, and with just a little common sense, it would profit the organization, rather than cost us discord and embarrassment.

I'm tired of apologizing for a program I have nothing to do with.

....Cotten
#776

[Sargehere]

Uncle Carl!

Sorry I missed your call today because I can't hear, I hope it was ordinary business.
Because if it was about this thread, you wouldn't want to hear me either.

The system does not fullfill its mandate.
It does harm to vintage motorcycling.
It succors Vanity to dismiss Science.
It is fatally flawed.

Scuttle it, and build a new ship Captain.

And Uncle Chris!

You just made yourself the posterchild for H-D TunnelVision Syndrome.

Obsessing with faults is not scientific.
Obsessing with everything else is.

How many Historically significant machines, of dozens of marques, are ignored by the program, excluded because they varied from the mythical ideal?
(emph. added)

Folks,
Vintage motorcycling needs to be fostered, not judged.
Roster machines with expert commentary, document with validity, and with just a little common sense, it would profit the organization, rather than cost us discord and embarrassment.

I'm tired of apologizing for a program I have nothing to do with.

....Cotten
#776

None.

How many bikes have you participated in the judging of, as a member of a judging team, Tom Cotten? How many times volunteered to judge, and gotten the first clue about the mythical faults with judging that you constantly rant about? I'm going to dismiss your blatherings as straw men, set up for you to hack away upon: you're jousting at windmills, a la "Don Quixcotten," until you discover how uninformed your constant diatribes actually are.

We've been through decades of owners over-chroming Indian Fours to the glittering hilt, and clueless owners of pristine OP examples "restoring" their bikes to death, but that's not today's as-built philosophy, thanks to people like the late Doc Patt, the Father, almost single-handedly, of the AMCA's appreciation for Unrestored as-found motorcycles being brought back to life with minimal intervention.

Not everyone marches to the same drummer (thank God) but that's not the fault of the club. Get a clue, the record is clear, not broken, like your ill-formed rants on the same false premises.
I'm sorry, I'm just fed up with it.

[fillibuster]

Cotton,
Nice segway to get back on topic.
I agree with you on the need for a digital database of images & descriptions of correct Winners's Circle or Senior judged bikes as a reference for those hungry for correct information. I'm amazed at the amount of contradictive information out there. Everyone feels strongly about what they've researched to be correct, but often times its based on those "gray" areas. I understand the difficulty in implementing this task. Maybe, as a start, someone can take left / right side digital shots of Winners Circle bikes at judging & post on this site with owners name as reference. Maybe, Senior bikes with a note on what is not correct. In time, it could be expanded to include critical detail images. If we find at a later date, more conclusive evidence of a detail making an earlier bike incorrect, the information could be dated upon entry. I feel the AMCA should step up as the authority on what is correct in the name of historical preservation. Even with good intention, I think damage is done due to misinformation. This may seem like additional work for judges, but if it is allocated to those assisting & learning the judging process, it shouldn't add work. In fact, I believe in time with more correct information available as an AMCA guide, it may ease the load in the future. It would also be invaluable as a study guide for future judges. As great as the AMCA judging system is, I feel in the current digital age, its fast becoming outdated. Just an opinion from someone who has not had a bike judged.

I think I've suggested something like this in the past, even thought the Foundation and the library were the key potential players; the library because that is where the info should be, and the Foundation because, uhhh, something about educating, or the general public, I don't know.

But on this, we're needing professional help, a lot more than volunteers can manage.
Admittedly, my position is selfishly based, but shared, imo. .. One of these days I'm gonna go for the build on a rare bike I have, and I'm only gonna build it once. Once, because who knows how much time we have? So I'd rather build it as correct as possible, than wing it and then pay twice, or thrice to get it correct. And considering the next caretaker of this bike should be of concern too, shouldn't it?

[Sargehere]

Good points all, Phil, in my humble opinion. The Foundation might find a new, easily-understood mission, professional methods of documentation would dovetail neatly with the constantly accumulating "library," making it more than a repository of old manuals and flyers available to members, but indexed to the bikes concerned. And building the bike once is an admirable ideal. Tho, when the bikes are under our temporary care, what are they, if not learning tools for our wetware? Inspiring post, Phil!

[T. Cotten]

A personal attack is the best you can do Sarge?
Seasoned with a dash of pointless blustery bravado?

Thank you for makeing it perfectly clear that you and I have no common ground;
I consider it a credit to my cause.

....Cotten

[Sargehere]

A personal attack is the best you can do Sarge?
Seasoned with a dash of pointless blustery bravado?

Thank you for makeing it perfectly clear that you and I have no common ground;
I consider it a credit to my cause.

....Cotten

Qiuxcotten, you don't say anything. Let alone, cowardly avoid answering my questions about your REAL experience in performing the judging that you roundly trash, ad nauseum while offering only complaints, with no real solutions. You really don't have a cause, or a bucket to stand in, except slip-talking deluding of the clueless about having personal knowledge of anything that you rant about, and stirring sewage.

It's soon found to be pointless to attempt to reason with a broken record of little substance, so I decided to change tack and end the charade. Your mind is made up to keep spouting the same offal you decided was unshakeable gospel untold decades ago, while the world (judging) has moved on. You missed the bus, Quixcotten. Sorry!

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear Tom and Gerry, enough of the cat and mouse! Maybe if Tom can write down his objections to the current judging system then we can address them one at a time. Judging at Oley is on Saturday this year, so if Tom is coming maybe he can see the state of the judging system in 2012. It still emphasises showroom/factory correct, and the last paragraph of the Handbook of Judging shows it places original condition motorcycles at the top of all judging categories, because they show the original picture. If original bikes have in the past been sacrificed to trophy hounds then I regret it, but there's not much we can do today except try to stop it happening again.

There are several problems with our current system: older restorations tend to get thrashed; everyday riders are neglected; competition bikes may not get properly recognised; judging can be uneven across makes or teams. But the Period Modified class now exists, and any 35 year old motorcycle can be in the Display category for us all to enjoy. Some Chapters are running open exhibitions outside the judging arena, such as 'Concours D'Ordinaire' at the Southern National. Maybe moving judging from Sunday back to Saturday means more people will become interested in factory correct bikes, and realise we volunteers are running a fallible system which can be improved by your efforts. Please join in.

[fillibuster]

quote steve: "Dear Tom and Gerry, enough of the cat and mouse!" end qo

I disagree. I believe we should at least slot them in on Saturday mornings!

Saturday judging IS a good thing. When are the Vikings doing theirs?

[T. Cotten]

Steve!

My objections, and my suggestions, have been clear.

Show me a database.
It is only a beauty contest without a database.

.....Cotten

[bobdo]

Phil,
I understand you & probably a few others have discussed this topic, I would think that reinforces the need. I'm not claiming ownership, just throwing in my 2 cents. If we can vote "thumbs up" to pay a professional that would be ideal. I don't know how a pro could make it to all the meets unless you have several or pay well, or maybe just have a pro handle the data base & have locals take the pics. Also, if we're talking about the best way to handle this with less thought on complexity, the database could & should have OP non-restored bikes in the same folder as Winners Circle restorations as a comparison. The emphasis should always be on preservation.

[Chris Haynes]

Qiuxcotten, you don't say anything. Let alone, cowardly avoid answering my questions about your REAL experience in performing the judging that you roundly trash, ad nauseum while offering only complaints, with no real solutions. You really don't have a cause, or a bucket to stand in, except slip-talking deluding of the clueless about having personal knowledge of anything that you rant about, and stirring sewage.

It's soon found to be pointless to attempt to reason with a broken record of little substance, so I decided to change tack and end the charade. Your mind is made up to keep spouting the same offal you decided was unshakeable gospel untold decades ago, while the world (judging) has moved on. You missed the bus, Quixcotten. Sorry!

Sarge,
Cotten has made it perfectly clear that he does not participate in judging and he has no desire to. personally I find a lot of the technical advice he gives here to be of great importance to anyone building a bike. Whether for show or riding. You may not agree with what he says, but it is his right to express his concerns without being attacked.