judging frustration

[MeanGene]

Chris, it's in the magazine article, pg 42. And I seem to remember you stating that you personally had (at least) once given a "100" score where it was deserved- but that was the only time I've heard of a "100"- and seems like one "official" had been quoted as saying that there was no such thing as a 100-point bike- which, IMHO, is just not right

[Sargehere]

Chris, it's in the magazine article, pg 42. And I seem to remember you stating that you personally had (at least) once given a "100" score where it was deserved- but that was the only time I've heard of a "100"- and seems like one "official" had been quoted as saying that there was no such thing as a 100-point bike- which, IMHO, is just not right

That official is pushing up daisies. A bike that no one can find a fault with through three inspections by AMCA judges, through Junior, Senior and Winners' Circle, deserves what it gets.
I judged a 1973 or 74 little Aermacchi Harley 175 at Silver Sands. It had only 1,000+ miles on it & it got over 99 points. Had some multi-colored strap holding the battery in, which was a white replacement, not a black one. Rest was so nice, we took a half- a-point, I think, and wrote the owner a note. Just two tiny corrections, and it'll rate like a bike that just rolled out of a crate. You can't fault one of them, provided they're correctly set-up.

Of course, once you take one of those "crate bikes" out and set it up, you about halve its resale value! We know of at least a couple of those twin-carbed, streetracer XL's are out there, still in their boxes. How can you fault that? Once the owner proves that the correct-year Milwaukee, Wisconsin air is still in the tires, I mean.

[MeanGene]

Sarge, or anyone else, how many "100"'s have you seen, or heard about? Interesting the way you worded that, "that no one can find a fault with" as opposed to "nothing wrong with"

[redfred84]

100 pt bikes DO exist! But they are pretty rare with the American stuff from before the '60s. My first restoration was a '47 Chief that I managed 99 3/4 pts with. I was dinged by the slightly weathered speedo face. Fair enough, I knew it going in, and the heck if I was going to replace it with a repro.
These days, with the insurge of a new year-of-manufacture bike added to our ranks, we finding more & more "near perfect" bikes. Things got so picky in the Antique Car world, that they opted for a 1000 point system!
It's all about preserving the machine for future reference.
Very Happy with 99 3/4pts, RF.

[MeanGene]

100 pt bikes DO exist!

OK, where? I agree that there have to be worthy bikes out there, but, again, how many "100"'s have you seen, or heard about, that were given their due and not nit-picked to death? Actually given a "100"?

[Chris Haynes]

OK, where? I agree that there have to be worthy bikes out there, but, again, how many "100"'s have you seen, or heard about, that were given their due and not nit-picked to death? Actually given a "100"?

Judging for inaccuracies is not nit picking. If something is wrong it is wrong. Plain and simple.

[Sargehere]

It's easy to give a "once-over" to someone's restoration of a 1930's-era bike, for instance, see the right salient features and say, "there's nothing wrong with that." But that's far from the inspection given such a machine, maybe built from hundreds of accumulated parts that were picked up from far and wide, that now are representing a bike that rolled off a manufacturer's assembly line three quarters of a century ago. There are as many ways to go wrong as there are opinions about what's right, after all this time.

That's why, unless built from an "original paint" bike that was intact from the get-go (a definite no-no now, but once considered a bonanza for the basis of a "restoration" years ago) there's almost always something revealed to several sets of expert eyes in twenty minutes of examination, by a team of people who know at what they're looking. That's also why I call every restoration, to some extent, a "replica." It's an attempt to build something that never was, in its time; an ideal, perfection, and most fall short.

What I'm saying is that, without resorting to that statement that was never true: "there are no hundred-point bikes," there are so many ways to go wrong that it sometimes seems that no one, ever, can get every, single, little thing right. When presented with completed judging sheets and a judge willing to patiently explain the details, most owner/restorers understand, and strive to make corrections to achieve the next level.

And then, there are some bikes, having flaws like a long ago run-in with a streetcar, perhaps, with replacement forks, engines and/or frames, that, like the little boy on crutches, are never going to make team, but have to satisfy themselves with a role as "team manager," or "waterboy." Not every bike is eligible for the Winner's Circle, almost no matter how hard the owner tries.

[Steve Slocombe]

Every bike starts with 100 points before the judges see it, so they are not awarded 100 points, it's just that the judges cannot find any deductions. I worry about say 100 point Marushos, because it could just be that the judges don't know enough about that model to find faults. I've been in the unlucky position of judging a 1970s Harley two-stroke with a 'for sale' sign on it, about which I knew little, and promised myself I wouldn't do the Chief Judge any favours like this again. The judging system can now decline to judge a bike if a qualified team cannot be put together, but I don't know if this has happened yet.

We do now see 100 point bikes, where a well qualified AMCA judging team is not able to find any deductions in say 20 minutes. We had a 1970s Honda at Davenport a couple of years ago, and I believe the first was one of Pete Reeves' 1942 Harley ELC Canadian military knuckleheads. A judging team including Bruce Linsday beat their heads against this particular wall for perhaps half an hour but could find no faults. Surely this is the definition of a 100 point bike.

As Gerry says, sign up as an apprentice judge next time you're at a National Meet. It's a system run by fallible humans, but they do the best job they can. These are mostly guys who could have been home a day earlier, putting their knowledge back into the Club for the benefit of the next generation of members and the preservation of our little piece of motorcycle history.

[D.A.Bagin]

My original 3900 mile 68 went thru 6 judgings as I corrected everything that they dinged trying to achieve the personal satisfaction of 100 pt bike. Included in this were gas line and clamps after being told these were safety and maintanance items not deducted for until the 3rd judging. It was always at 99 or above. Always some "NEW" item would be found and corrected not seen previously by the SAME judges. On try # 6 they pointed out 1 nut that was claimed to be wrong finish, by the SAME judges, never picked up before even tho it was staring them in the face all thru 6 times. Don't get me wrong , I am very happy with what I have and ride the bike alot and will continue to do so.

[vph-d]

I judged an original 77 XLCR at Freemont this year that scored 99 3/4 points. The bike had 275 miles on it, and was in unbelievable condition, just like the ones we were forced by the factory to take back in 1977.
VPH-D

[MeanGene]

My original 3900 mile 68 went thru 6 judgings as I corrected everything that they dinged trying to achieve the personal satisfaction of 100 pt bike. Included in this were gas line and clamps after being told these were safety and maintanance items not deducted for until the 3rd judging. It was always at 99 or above. Always some "NEW" item would be found and corrected not seen previously by the SAME judges. On try # 6 they pointed out 1 nut that was claimed to be wrong finish, by the SAME judges, never picked up before even tho it was staring them in the face all thru 6 times. Don't get me wrong , I am very happy with what I have and ride the bike alot and will continue to do so.

Perfect example of what I'm talking about, seems like nit-picking to the extreme, and "finding" a single "claimed" wrong "finish" nut on an original bike- seems like the old just-can't-give-a "100" thing. How much time did they spend trying to "find" a "flaw" so they could deny a 100?

[murph]

I got 100 points on an early sportster last year, but I think if you give a knowledgeable person long enough time they'll find something wrong. And really who cares if they do, Isn't that why your there? As long as it isn't something stupid like too much black stuff in the muffler.

[Knotthed]

It's all about preserving the machine for future reference.RF.

For whose future reference?

Just thinking outside the box here on this one. What if it were "Documenting" instead of "judging"?

A pictoral book report could be created for each make/model/year and individual bikes that are respective of each and placed into the Virtual Library. This would preserve enourmous amounts of reference material on these old bikes. Now this is no small task, but a template could be setup that covers the different major categorys of the bike, perhaps similar to the judging sheet.

This data could be available to all members for reference, instead of hoping to see a certain bike at a meet that may or may not show up.

The judging committee for each make/model/year and individual bikes could be documented with the pictorals. You would essentially be creating the largest motorcycle encyclopedia ever.

I think that some members concerns are that the current system loses more information than it preserves.

Given this is no small task, the owner should be involved in creating the report and it should be reviewed by the comittee? A lot of the work could be done up front, reviewed in a session and then signed off by the committee locking it in. Of utmost priority should be known original machines.

I have heard of points being taken off for a bolt being in backwards, I'm sure that never happened on a human run assembly line back in the day.............the new guys first day - someone was sick, the morning after the superbowl - need I go on?

I participated in an apprentice judging session at Davenport a few years back, it was very enlightening. The biggest problem I see is that these "Experts" retain the information in their head, not documented in print for all to use and see. With that said even though I have never had a bike judged, I would like to extend a thanks to them for volunteering their time to the club.

Just a different point of view.

[AFJ]

Every bike starts with 100 points before the judges see it, so they are not awarded 100 points, it's just that the judges cannot find any deductions. I worry about say 100 point Marushos, because it could just be that the judges don't know enough about that model to find faults. I've been in the unlucky position of judging a 1970s Harley two-stroke with a 'for sale' sign on it, about which I knew little, and promised myself I wouldn't do the Chief Judge any favours like this again. The judging system can now decline to judge a bike if a qualified team cannot be put together, but I don't know if this has happened yet.

We do now see 100 point bikes, where a well qualified AMCA judging team is not able to find any deductions in say 20 minutes. We had a 1970s Honda at Davenport a couple of years ago, and I believe the first was one of Pete Reeves' 1942 Harley ELC Canadian military knuckleheads. A judging team including Bruce Linsday beat their heads against this particular wall for perhaps half an hour but could find no faults. Surely this is the definition of a 100 point bike.

As Gerry says, sign up as an apprentice judge next time you're at a National Meet. It's a system run by fallible humans, but they do the best job they can. These are mostly guys who could have been home a day earlier, putting their knowledge back into the Club for the benefit of the next generation of members and the preservation of our little piece of motorcycle history.

Steve,
As a matter of interest regarding Pete Reeves ELC Knucklehead Canadian Military pattern bikes, are these equipped with the left hand sidecars? An old friend, who was stationed with the Canadian Ordnance Corps, Aldershot in Britain during WWII told me that they had just two of them, both run as solos. Originally, all 44 of the single batch of ELCs made were delivered from H-D with special sidecars with the wheels interchangeable with the bike wheels. I've not seen any ELCs here in Canada with these sidecars although I have pictures of the complete outfits on winter exercises with their designer (and the designer of the WLC) Tony Miller around 1942-43.
Al Johnson

[D.A.Bagin]

I would say they spent the allotted 15-20 min. on the bike. Remember they have the previous sheets to go by. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate all the time and effort the judges put into this and it sometimes is a thankless job and I want to thank them. They donate their time, energy and knowledge for the club and the members for this. They could be on the highway on their way home.