judging frustration

[36 knuck man]

Thru the years I have observed a lot of the judging, however I have only had a couple of bikes judged a couple of times. What I dont understand is all the inconsistance from meet to meet. It seems to me that when a bike is judged at one meet and then all the gigs are worked off for the next judging the bike should receive the next higher award. However, I have seen bikes get giged for items that were not even found the 1st time around. Also I have extensive factory archive photos of several bikes, not to mention over 55 yrs experience on a few bikes, and I have noticed that the judges dont have a clue on some of the items, so when judging if in their opinion it is not correct, they just take off for it. Seems to me if you are not sure you either ask for help or certainly not deduct for it. Dont, get me wrong, I know a lot of hard work goes into judging and it is very time consuming and my hat is off to all those who take part. I just wanted to vent a little frustration, thanks for listening, Larry

[bikerdds]

Larry, the whole judging scene has been topsy turvy now for over a year ever since the Rocky/Kevin incident at Eustis in 2010.
The head judge who was appointed in 2010 resigned at Eustis in 2011. The president has not yet appointed a new head judge. Many seasoned judges have backed off as well due to out of control internal politics which is far from over. There has been more emphasis on "bad numbers" than anything else of late. Knowledge is definately an issue for many of the new or remaining judges.
Even when everything was fine before the upheaval some inconsistancies would still arise. When ever the same team of judges was able to review the same bike on more than one occassion, the consistancy was superior. We always could find something from one judging to the next since the judging can be so intensive it is impossible to catch everything the first time. With fidderent groups, they would review previous deductions and could still disagree with previous results, so no matter what, there will always be some inconsistancy, but for now, anything is possible until the whole system stabilizes, which to many of us is unlikely. If you want more background, review old posts under hotile takeover and other headings in the judging section.

[murph]

My first, only, and last experiance has been head scratching as well. If you look at it as entertainment rather then educational, the process is more enjoyable. I also found that in my catagory that I was slightly more knowledgable then the judges. The education part that I got from it was that if I wasn't part of the solution, I was part of the problem and decided to lend a hand. Would I want the job of judging? mmmmmmmmm No. But I do think the people who do it are honestly trying. The whole thing seems to me to be a thankless job. No one wants to hear that the bike they painstakingly assembled over countless years is incorrect, myself included. Take it for what it is and enjoy the process I guess. I won't do it again but I can say now that I did it once. Just my two cents if I am entitled to it.

[redfred84]

Out West here, we only have one opportunity to get our bikes judged per year ( unless we transport for some 2000 miles). So when I built my '40 Sport Scout with the advice, and parts from noted Scout expert, and then Assistant Chief Judge Robin Markey, I was pretty proud of efforts. Robin actually led the team that Judged my Scout, and I earned the Jr 1st, and set out to correct my infractions. I was overly anal on show bikes, and kept them in a plastic bag for the entire year between our Judgeble Meets. 2nd year rolls around, and again, Robin leads the exact same team on my Scout. I get advanced to Sr 1st, but they found some more infractions that were not noted during the first inspection. Still, the bike is advancing, and I am learning.
Back to the shop, make the corrections, and back in the bag she goes for another year. Low & behold, Robin and the very same team go over my baby for the 3rd time. She makes Winners Circle, but I think the score actually went backwards! I was pretty disgusted, but I still learned, and the bike still advanced.
Last year, the Judging Committee painstakingly created the Judging Guidelines Manual. This is an effort to make all the judging more uniform, despite who is judging the machine. The AMCA Judging System is considered the Best there is, and it is still constantly sought after by various entities, including FIVA, and the HVA. We are all striving to make our bikes worthy candidates for future reference. That is what the Club is all about. It's a tough road, but We are all doing this for the Good of the Club.
RF.

[Chris Haynes]

If you have points off for anything you can document is correct the points will be restored. Bottom line is to have all of your documentation with you when the machine is judged. Factory photos, correct year parts books, ETC. Hearsay information is not documentation.
One of the reasons for a team of judges is that no one person knows it all. True some things do get overlooked during one judging session are are discovered on the next one.

[Underdoggie]

Red Fred, your experience to the Winners Cirlcle sounds very much like my experience, although it was a different team of people each time, Jr. 1st was very good, Sr. was even better but from Sr. to Winners Circle the score went backwards. Interesting process but I probably wont experience it again as my machine is an original and I do not have an intense enough interest in restored machines. I think the judges do well and it was worth doing. I love that little badge on the back of the bike that says "Winners Circle"

[kval]

I love that little badge on the back of the bike that says "Winners Circle"

John
when I took over as Chief Judge, I wondered why we were not honoring the bike's that had made it to the highest award we have to offer. why not let the world know that they are looking at a very special bike, so I had those tags made up to replace the "Senior" and advertise it as what it earned "Winners Circle"

[Robin--M]

Fred,

Your statement is typical of the current board, facts are not correct. Yes, I judged your 40 Sport Scout, but I suggest you pull out your portfolio and check your sheets a little closer, you will see your statement is not correct.

You mention about the new Judging Guidelines Manual. First off, it has a lot of mistakes in it. Second, it is useless unless the person judging the bike has the knowledge of what is correct on the bike that he is judging. You can have all the guidelines and rules in the world, but, if you don't have qualified, competent judges, your manuals are worthless. Even with my knowledge and as many years as I've been judging, it's very easy to miss something. A lot of us better judges, could be judging a 10 or 15 year span of 20 or so models, and sometimes different brands and it is very easy to miss something while judging. Plus the normal better judges and better teams were normally training apprentices also. That was the whole principal of having the bike judged a minimum of 3 times. Not only to give the owner a chance to correct the bike, but to also have it judged by, hopefully, a qualified team at least one of the times that it was judged.

So if you're going to reference my name, please double check your information.

Robin Markey

[T. Cotten]

One can only wonder what the AMCA could achieve for vintage motorcycling,
if all of this energy and dedication were put to something more productive than a fatally-flawed trophy competition.

....Cotten

[exeric]

I was talking with a friend yesterday, about AMCA judging and you have to admit that it always has been a trophy hunt. Of course it rewards correctness and strives to build knowledge but that information and knowledge seems to be confined to the judging arena. If the mission of AMCA judging is to increase the knowledge of historical motorcycles, should we not be documenting the bikes that are the most correct. Additionally, that documentation should be accessable to all members. I know that is a huge undertaking and it has been discussed before with no results. I think without documenting the best bikes, AMCA judging is an expensive, pointless exercise that just gets everyone's blood pressure up.

[LouieMCman]

ALL the bikes are documented on an updated (after each meet) data base, just not accessible to the general public. I'm not really into the judging, I've only had one bike go through the system (a 1920 original paint Winners Circle), but don't see the need to have the results of the "best bikes" available to me. If I'm going to restore a bike (which I will never do again) I will do the home work and learn how it needs to be.

I think Cotton hit the nail on the head, "all this energy and dedication" is what we DON't have at this time on the national level for the judging. The Chief Judges job has to be the toughest job in the club, he or a representative is expected to go to all the meets to over see the national judging. In my opinion the club needs to find some one to do the job and make sure he is taken care of for his time and expenses. The national judging has been in disarray long enough and should be the boards top priority. Any comments?

[speedracer]

Amen brother!!!!!!

all the bikes are documented on an updated (after each meet) data base, just not accessible to the general public. I'm not really into the judging, i've only had one bike go through the system (a 1920 original paint winners circle), but don't see the need to have the results of the "best bikes" available to me. If i'm going to restore a bike (which i will never do again) i will do the home work and learn how it needs to be.

I think cotton hit the nail on the head, "all this energy and dedication" is what we don't have at this time on the national level for the judging. The chief judges job has to be the toughest job in the club, he or a representative is expected to go to all the meets to over see the national judging. In my opinion the club needs to find some one to do the job and make sure he is taken care of for his time and expenses. The national judging has been in disarray long enough and should be the boards top priority. Any comments?

[Underdoggie]

The national judging has been in disarray long enough and should be the boards top priority. Any comments?

I have only been a member for a couple of years. I met Kevin Valintine at my first meet and liked him right off and thought he did a great job and had hoped to learn more from him, I even thought about participating as a judge (my knowledge of 60's and 70's shovelheads is pretty fair. Then the next year he was gone, I didnt know what to think, then I met Steve Dawdy at Waseuon last year and liked him too and thought he was doing a great job, now he is gone too. In my opinion one of these guys should be the top dog judge and stay in the job for a long time and that would make things better. Another thing, I think the judging should be more of a main event thing at the meets and done on Saturdays, make it more of a production. Maybe do the juging over the entire meet, like certain classes on one day and other classes on another day or even morning and afternoon judging. I have heard the argument that it needs to be on Sundays because of this and that. I have only been to four meets so far and on Saturday afternoons you better stay out of the way or you will get run over by vendors leaving and going home, some of them need to as they are far away. I know for me Sundays were tuff as I need to get back home. just a newer guys thoughts.

[D.A.Bagin]

Alex, I'll take the catagory "Worms" for $500.

What is; "Im free, I'm free, I'm free at last!!

What the worms said when the can got opened.

[exeric]

[QUOTE=LouieMCman;110149]ALL the bikes are documented on an updated (after each meet) data base, just not accessible to the general public.

What I meant was; documented photographically and with notations so the best bikes are preserved in some way. As it is now, a fantastic motorcycle finishes judging and goes back in it's hole and may never be seen in public again. So the guy gets a trophy. . Whoop-dee-do. Unless you were there to see the bike and take your own pictures, the whole process of judging that bike was somewhat pointless. As far as I'm concerned, unless AMCA judging can produce the kind of usefull reference photos and documentation that actually helps our members restore their motorcycles, the AMCA may need to reassess the value of judging. . . . Because, all judging is producing now is heartache, and hard feelings.