Judging System Question?

[Chris Haynes]

Britluv!

Gary was merely lamenting that people with shiny bikes are left out.
And when it comes to serious National judging, a system that disqualifies at 85 points does just that.

Cotten,
Machines that score less than 85 points are not disqualified from anything. They are judged along with all the other machines and the owners receive the judging form so they can see what the judges felt was wrong with their machine. You must achieve 85 points to win an award.
A machine with say 80 points only has to fix a couple small things to bring it up to 85 so it can win an award. Without it being judged and given a less than winning score the owner possibly wouldn't know what he needed to change to bring it up.
Sadly many people feel that rebuilding a bike, putting fancy paint on it, and chroming a lot of stuff is a restoration.

[T. Cotten]

Thanks Chris!

That word "win" bothers me.
Is judging a competition, or not?

....Cotten

[Chris Haynes]

Thanks Chris!

That word "win" bothers me.
Is judging a competition, or not?

....Cotten

You use of the word competition is not correct. Lets change the word Win to the word Earn. We have different awards. There is not one award in each class. You can have several First awards, both Junior and Senior, in the same class. The same with the Junior Second awards. Bikes are not competing against each other. They are being judged against the condition the left the factory in. It is possible that all bikes could be judged as First, although unlikely.

[T. Cotten]

Chris!

I like the word "earn" MUCH better!

"Achieve" works too.

My concern is that "winning" conjures up that I-beat-you-for-a-trophy mindset. Especially if the game becomes fool-the-judges.

Thanks again,

....Cotten

[portagepan]

I parked my "65 FLH in a row of vendors in the main aisle at Wauseon last summer. I came back and someone was looking at it. Said Hi, and we talked a while about it, what was and was not rebuilt on it, our other bikes, etc. When he walked away, he said "NICE BIKE"! There's my winners circle. Ya'll come back now. Heah?
Mike

[T. Cotten]

I parked my "65 FLH in a row of vendors in the main aisle at Wauseon last summer. I came back and someone was looking at it. Said Hi, and we talked a while about it, what was and was not rebuilt on it, our other bikes, etc. When he walked away, he said "NICE BIKE"! There's my winners circle. Ya'll come back now. Heah?
Mike

Mike!

I take it then that you represent the polar opposite attitude to the vanity trophy seekers.

But I gotta ask:
Wouldn't you be interested in finding out what you might learn from a panel of volunteer authorities? I mean,... if the whole beauty contest b*tchfest aspect were removed?

Considering the nightmare for conformity that '65 Big Twins represent, wouldn't that be a rare opportunity?

I'll bet the authorities would learn something themselves, as that was one bizarre production year!

And that just might have been what the Founders intended for a judging system.

....Cotten

[portagepan]

I know you did the carb for me, and it runs great. As far as complete originality, I really don't want to rough up my covers, or degrade anything to make it "right". It is a 65. It runs like a 65. It looks like a 65. Haynes will say it has some incorrect chrome side covers, from the Shovel. I have spent a lot of money and time to get the bike close to what it should be. I mean I have a file full of paper receipts, and info. I photo'd every aspect of the work, only to lose almost all of it to the computer gremlins. I am always glad to share what little I know with others, and they all know who I am. There are a lot of us who just like old bikes, and keeping things running, etc. I am absolutely no mechanic, but I have had this down and up, with help, until it runs and stops fine. It is a big, heavy, hard to work on monster, but I love it. Anybody that has an Electra Glide knows that feeling. I do really appreciate the determination of the people who really believe in the absolute original correctness of historic machinery. And I love looking at it and learning about it. That said, I am completely completely happy with the way mine is now. Heck, who can afford another old bike anyway, these days? Nothing is better than helping someone get their bike on the road. Whether it is knowledge, garage time, a part they need, or just hauling it somewhere for them. I will never make a correction to someone on their bike unless they ask me. People might as well face it. With the size of tjis club, and the money involved nowadays, things are never going to be a simple as they used to be. I don't evn know if the clug can actually handle all of the foreign bikes coming into play. Or the real old ones, either. That just seems like another can of worms that is going to pop open soon. I like all bikes, and mostly have been riding my Yamahopper this year so far, but is there any way for the club to actually handle the influx? Heck, a few years from now, these might be the "good ol' days". Mike

[T. Cotten]

Whoa Mike!
NOBODY should EVER tell the AMCA that I did their carb!

Anyway, the whole notion that you had gone to extremes to document your machine is precisely what the Founders would have encouraged.

Judging should be all about information, not vanity, but the vast majority of history, techniques, and personalization is lost to only be preserved in coffeetable books and pulp rag magazines.

"Provenance" often starts right this minute.

...Cotten

[starklite]

S
Or, am I cynical because, in my opinion, he wants this because he is in the BUSINESS of rebuilding and selling "pretty" bikes like this?

Please read my post. I asked about the option of two levels of judging.
1. The Current "As left factory" system
2. A Pleasure class - for those that don't want to restore to, or want a bike, or the bike has mismatched cases and would be DQ'ed in the level one judging category.

Not everybody in the AMCA wants a "as left factory" bike. They restore the bike the way they like, not a judges opinion.

I've stayed out the conversation, and make one observation and get accused of being, "In the business".

All I want to see is the sport/club grow, and people to enjoy their bikes. Enjoyment of the bikes is what the club is about, and everybody has different tastes of enjoyment.

If people do not enjoy the bikes, and ride them, they will end up in a museum, or in a garage or in the living room, and who will carry on the enjoyment we get out of riding old obsolete iron around the countryside?

We need to do everything possible to get "NEW" people involved. Look at membership statistics. I bet that every year the "average" age of members skews upward. If we don't get our children, grandchildren involved and riding, and working on the iron the club will age out!

If getting new / more people involved involves starting a pleasure class of judging why not?

Gary Stark
Starklite Cycle
951-968-3070

[T. Cotten]

If getting new / more people involved involves starting a pleasure class of judging why not?

Because its totally un-judgeable!

Chapters should be able to conjure any vanity trophy they want.

But National awards should really mean something.

....Cotten

[Chris Haynes]

Not everybody in the AMCA wants a "as left factory" bike. They restore the bike the way they like, not a judges opinion.

Gary Stark
Starklite Cycle
951-968-3070

Gary,
That is called customizing, not restoring.

[T. Cotten]

Let us consider attracting not just new members,
but let us consider attracting new active participants.

The vast overwhelming majority will not have the time, resources, or even the inclination to bounce from one end of the continent to the other to participate.
The real social interaction that so many consider to be rewarding "fun" happens at their local Chapter.

And Chapters need active contributing members no doubt!
So promotions and informal games and competitions should be encouraged.

My contention is that National awards, intended to preserve History, should remain formal and prestigious.

We do not need more accessible National classes,
We need more accessible Chapters!

....Cotten

[bikerdds]

Gary, just a reminder we have a class for the bikes that have been modified called Period Modified. They are based on the old Eye candy concept of what looks best in the eye of the beholder.
I would also add that while the chapter meets are meant for folks in a geographical area to get together for fellowship, it is generally the National meets where you have the large swapmeets. The thing to take from this is there is something for everyone out there. Making the chapter meets accessible is also critical to those who won't or can't make a National. Moving the chapter meets around helps this so all in a large geogrphical area can occassionally attend a chapter meet. Chapter meets normally do more road runs. Chapter meets may also judge. They can do their own thing or AMCA based judging, but ultimately for AMCA judging need to be judged when head or assistant head judge is on site to qualify for National awards, which normally would be a Nationally sanctioned meet.
There is therefor something for everyone at the National level whether you want to be in period modifed or points based when it comes to judging.
Tom, I understand your concept of not over restoring when lots of parts on a bike when changed/restored change the character more than what may seem necessary from a historical point of view. There is no format at this time to address such a thing. It is either unrestored[repaired and worn is OK] or restored as delivered to the dealer. I'll make sure your comments are referred to the judging committee, as there is validity to them.

[T. Cotten]

Bikerdds!

While your at it, tell them "period modified" is totally un-judgeable too.
If the purpose of judging is to "correct" machines, then it has no application, or reason to be for a National Award.

Which brings up the question:
How do you "correct" an original un-restored machine?
Or a competition machine? (If it was Granpa's wildcat hillclimber, why even try?)

My perspective is that all historical reference pieces, as well as ridden-and-maintained, daily-use heirlooms, fall into a valid class best described as a "Conservation" class.

Fewer classes are better than more and more: Keeping it simple, y'know.

...Cotten
PS: You might just not want to mention me by name. It won't go over well.

[LouieMCman]

I've been reading the judging posted with some interest because of our new meet and all the changes of personal and rules. And although I have only one judge able bike, I usually stay clear of the judging. The way I see it the major changes are in the competition bikes, the other rules are some that should have been there all along. In the past there have been bikes judged close to 100 points that were ALL repop except the motor. That is just not right.
I don't see what else can come out of this thread, questions were ask and answered, and the ranting goes on. By someone not even involved in the judging process. Please put this dead horse to rest....