Judging System Question?

[T. Cotten]

What about the teens or pre teens bike that got repainted when it was 10 years old? Say everything else on the bike is original what happens to it? There should be a catagory for "Preserved" motorcycles.

Chris!

"Preserved" sounds like its embalmed.
That's why I use the word "conserved", because they really aught to remain a living machine.

And Robin!

I take that the coming changes in the system aren't likely to make it any simpler, accessible, or relevant than it was, huh.

(For some reason, the system as I read it in the Handbook never equated to what folks told me about their experiences.)

How does a largely apathetic membership deal with an autocracy?

....Cotten

[Sargehere]

Cotten, after carefully tracking your ramblings, I have concluded that you don't know anything. I mean that it's all over the map, a little of this, a little of that, because you're casting about for something that doesn't exist: a way to satisfy everyone. But the mindless drivel is sometimes attenuated by interesting hypotheses.
We preserve old motorcycles all the time. So there has to be a formal judging class for them? For what? Pretty much all of this discussion is mush. Little will change, and club will go on. Those who can afford to will attend most of the meets, and make the rules. Those who can't, won't. It's all driven by the dollar, so that's capitalism; the American Way.

[exeric]

Chris!

"Preserved" sounds like its embalmed.
That's why I use the word "conserved", because they really aught to remain a living machine.

And Robin!

I take that the coming changes in the system aren't likely to make it any simpler, accessible, or relevant than it was, huh.

(For some reason, the system as I read it in the Handbook never equated to what folks told me about their experiences.)

How does a largely apathetic membership deal with an autocracy?

....Cotten

And just who is this autocrat?

[rbenash]

Ray, I can see your situation but I think a class like you describe would just muddy the judging waters. I'll cite my example and leave it at that. I have a 1948FL that I have been building for fun. I started this project to reconnect with the fun of building a bike and of course, panheads are easy to do and easy to find parts for. This bike started as a pair of gas tanks hanging from the rafters in my shop and that was the jumping off point that committed me to the project. My goal, from the get go was to have fun and not get mired in the obscession to find perfect, genuine parts. I do that with my early bikes but this bike is suppose to be fun. I have been very fortunate to find lots of great condition, genuine parts for the '48 but I have had no qualms about using a repro dash base, wiring, muffler, headlight, and fender light, and lots of little things are just easier to get out of a catalog. This bike has also been a great place to use nice old parts that have been collecting dust but fall into that catagory of too nice to restore; hence the tail-light has light pitting in the chrome, the footboard mats show slight wear, and the speedo is nice but worn. Getting back to the point of this letter is; not every bike needs to be judged, or should be judged to AMCA standards. Some bikes should just be enjoyed; which gets back to the question of what do you want to do with your bike? If you're serious about getting it judged, then be prepared for an expensive, long ordeal that turns the bike into a static piece of art. You will be stunned by the scrutiny of the AMCA judges of 30s and post war H-Ds and Indians. Very little gets by them, and again; at the end of the day, you have a little trophy and a piece of art that your wife won't let you keep in the living room. My thinking now is; if someone has an interest in AMCA judging, they should get involved with the process, and go through the ordeal of putting a bike through. I also believe that the standards must be high so that AMCA recognition means something. Bikes like my '48 should be welcomed and maybe displayed, but I don't think it has a place in AMCA judging. In reality, this has been the case for as long as I have been in the AMCA. At every meet I have been to, there have been fantastic bikes on display throughout the grounds and parking lots. Some bikes are in the process of being built, some are funky old riders, and some are Frankenstein's love children. Regardless, I've taken more pictures of bikes like the aforementioned than I have of bikes on the judging floor. There is a huge interest in such bikes and I don't think that AMCA judging has to be the fate of every antique motorcycle.

Appreciate your points, but in my case not exactly what I'm talking about. I would say as an example take the speedo. It's the original that was rebuilt several years ago so that it would work correctly. Told the rebuidler (Palo Alto speedo) That I didn't want the original face, needle or number wheels replaced. None of it was cracked or affected other than shows some age/character. All of the original owners looked at that face, etc. I get a connected feel with them when I ride it (one was my father). If I have the bike judged as "restored" I get dinged because the whole speedo should be restored or "new". Fair enough, that's the rules as they stand. Just saying another class would realize this speedo is fine the way it is, it's original. And beause the bike has been repainted (see below) shouldn't mean I have to be that intrusive on the original parts.

The bike was 90-95% original, which is great for a '65 I think we can agree. One of the owners practiced his new found pinstriping on it (on the original paint). I found it unsightly. I reserached and found a set of original but repainted set of metal from another '65 that I had restored and repainted with original colors and pattern for use on my bike. You can't tell the difference now between them as far as paint (Paul from American Cycle Fab). That decision, which I would still make pushes me into "restored" AFA judging. And now EVERYTHING on the bike must be restored (if I want to have it judged). Correct?

Another example - same bike, it really was at the point it needed a tear down and rebuild of all major components. Bike is down - should I repaint the frame? If I do - would that also mean, if I want to participate in the judging program that now the WHOLE BIKE must be restored?

Anyway, all I am saying is that I think there should be a class that judges the bike with the same level of scrutiny in terms of being original and not reproduction, etc but not to the point that the whole bike has to look like it came off the dealer or factory floor. There is a level between, starting to like preservation. That I think accommodates this.

Not really complaining as much as recognizing a need for another class between as found or original and fully restored to factory or dealer floor condition. I'll have it judged anyway, since it gives me the opportunity to get feedback from folks I am hoping are familiar with the margue and year and the challenges a 65 presents. Everything on the bike that had to be replaced is NOS. I studied 1965 and collected '65 correct for 10 years before having the bike rebuilt. A little harder understanding what is correct and finding it for a '65. I don't see the need to have everything brought back to new necessarily as long as it is judged as an original. The additional class resolves this IMHO.

[Sargehere]

A little harder understanding what is correct and finding it for a '65. I don't see the need to have everything brought back to new necessarily as long as it is judged as an original.

But Ray, it's not an original. Not close to it. Someone looking at it isn't learning from it exactly how the factory painted the '65 Panheads. It's a reassembly of parts, from your description, modified to your liking and displays the results of your judgements, from your study, of what a '65 originally looked like. The closest thing to that is "restoration:" replacing missing parts and simulating the original paint. You liked the original patina of the speedo. There's no connection to the former owners for restored bikes. Every post-factory detail has been wiped out and it's taken back. You want connection to its past? Fine, but that's not restoration. It's either original, restored (a virtually unrideable "artwork," usually) or it's a rider.
In between is just that, an unjudgeable in-betweener. There are thousands like it. Don't get angry. You built what you wanted. You didn't set out to build a showpiece (not if you specifically didn't have the speedo face replaced, etc.) so don't expect national recognition for building what you liked.
There's no class for "I built what I like," except your own satisfaction and that of fellow riders who also notice and admire what you made. You made a series of decisions, and you gained a wealth knowlege about that watershed transition year in Harley history, 1965. Enjoy it and ride it. But no bike can be all things.

[Tommo]

I've kept out of this discussion as I felt it didn't concern me but as things stand I might be bringing my 65 pan to the USA to ride and participate in some AMCA events.
If I get it judged do I have to bring both the solo and the buddy seats with me because that is the way it left the factory.
I have attached the factory invoice that substantiates this fact and in doing so ask how does anyone know exactly how a particular bike left the factory unless they can produce this sort of evidence.
All sorts of special order bikes were sent out of factories all over the world, especially when they were in financial trouble. Douglas is a good example following the First World War and Triumph was in the same boat during the Sit-In by the unions, I just think it is almost impossible for any individual to say that is how a particular bike should look because it would only be his opinion as to how it left the factory.
Without the factory invoice I would have been ridiculed if I stated that a 1965 Harley left the factory with two seats but the evidence is there for all to see.
I'm with Cotton on this,too much history is destroyed by over zealous but well meaning bike owners who think that shiney is best. If shiney is best why do genuine un-restored machines command the prices they do in the auction rooms

[rbenash]

But Ray, it's not an original. Not close to it. Someone looking at it isn't learning from it exactly how the factory painted the '65 Panheads. It's a reassembly of parts, from your description, modified to your liking and displays the results of your judgements, from your study, of what a '65 originally looked like. The closest thing to that is "restoration:" replacing missing parts and simulating the original paint. You liked the original patina of the speedo. There's no connection to the former owners for restored bikes. Every post-factory detail has been wiped out and it's taken back. You want connection to its past? Fine, but that's not restoration. It's either original, restored (a virtually unrideable "artwork," usually) or it's a rider.
In between is just that, an unjudgeable in-betweener. There are thousands like it. Don't get angry. You built what you wanted. You didn't set out to build a showpiece (not if you specifically didn't have the speedo face replaced, etc.) so don't expect national recognition for building what you liked.
There's no class for "I built what I like," except your own satisfaction and that of fellow riders who also notice and admire what you made. You made a series of decisions, and you gained a wealth knowlege about that watershed transition year in Harley history, 1965. Enjoy it and ride it. But no bike can be all things.

I have the original sheet metal with the original paint for reference. Not angry at all, just silenced. Guess I don't know what I'm talking about.
I'll continue to watch from the sidelines.

[Sargehere]

"If I get it judged do I have to bring both the solo and the buddy seats with me because that is the way it left the factory(?)"

You have the King of the Highway Group, and a document to prove it. It is original paint? If it still displays all the other items of the King of the Highway group, and hasn't been extensively updated, that's an original. The fact that it originally was sold with an extra seat is just a sidelight. Judges would like to see all the King of the Highway Group, however.
As far as "how a particular bike left the factory," the rules are not that specific. If it displays a tourpack, it better have saddlebags, etc. The "accessory groups" offered by the factory are expected to be complete. Or it could be a basic bike, no options.
People seem to be reading every possible exaggeration into the rules. Judges like documentation, but, by a long shot, it's not mandatory.

[Tommo]

Gerry,
I helped Dad take that bike out of the crate and assemble it.
When it arrived from the factory no seat was fitted and both were in cardboard boxes (I still have both those boxes) in a seperate packing case. Dad prefered a solo seat so that was fitted in preference to the buddy seat.
Right from the start the bike had a solo seat fitted.
I take it from what you are saying that if I turn up with a solo seat I'll get pinged because it's a King of the Highway bike but the solo seat is what Dad fitted right from the start.
Because I believe in being honest I must admit that whenever the bike was displayed way back then Dad always put the buddy seat on and most photos taken by admirers at the time show the bike with the buddy seat fitted.
There was no dealer in NZ at that time so Dad was allowed to import this bike direct from the factory (at the time the factory wanted him to become the NZ distributor) and if he had chosen to on-sell it with the solo seat only would the new owner be in a similar quandry if he still had the bike today.
"Thats exactly as I got it from the importer" he'd be saying and the judges would be calling him a fibber.
Of those two just who is trying to rewrite history? The judges or the owner.
Please be aware that I'm only using this as an example in the arguement in a bid to help resolve this issue. Surely this sort of documented evidence should carry some weight.

[Sargehere]

That document would be all the weight, if it was to up come to the judging field. Without it, yes, you might get dinged for not having the whole King of the Highway group except the buddy seat fitted, but the original invoice carries the day, bearing even the VIN of the bike that's in front of the judges. Documentation like yours is always nice. Without it, the next best would be contemporary magazine ads and maybe road test articles, both picturing and pointing out the specific features that came stock, or were available to the original owners. You won't have any problem at all if you bring your Panhead and invoice to the 'States, Tommo.

[Robin-M]

And Robin!

I take that the coming changes in the system aren't likely to make it any simpler, accessible, or relevant than it was, huh.

(For some reason, the system as I read it in the Handbook never equated to what folks told me about their experiences.)

How does a largely apathetic membership deal with an autocracy?

....Cotten[/QUOTE]


Cotton,

Yes, you're right. For the most part they made it more complicated but with a lack of expertise and common sense and general motorcycle knowledge. So far what I've seen in the new system, they are being unapproachable. In the previous system that Kevin and I were in charge of, I was always the last one on the field at every judging event I attended. I made sure everyones questions were answered or at least addressed and answered later. Our judging system, that we were in charge of, was not an autocracy, we were performing our duties to our best possible abilities for the benefit of the preservation of the motorcycles and for the knowledge and the corrections needed for the machine and the owner. Or just answering their concerns or questions.

As one of the people on this thread was inquiring about an unrestored original motorcycle that he repainted the sheet metal to the original color and rebuilt the mechanics of the motorcycle and had the speedo repaired, but did not restore it. This is a perfect example of why Kevin and I and some of our other top judges in the previous judging system, came up with the 6 point deduction rule. You have an unrestored motorcycle that is a correct example of a certain year motorcycle, it has all the correct hardware, etc, but it was repainted, but to an original color, the rest of the machine is unrestored. This would have been judged as an unrestored motorcycle but repainted giving it the possible highest score of 94 points. Which is a top Junior First trophy. But since it was repainted, it would keep it from the top trophy, a Senior trophy. But yet it would be able to obtain a Junior First and Junior Second trophy. This would prevent someone from destroying a valuable piece of history. This was the best way we knew how to do it. Not everyone does want a restored motorcycle. Most restored motorcycles like in anything restored usually winds up being too perfect. What most people forget, these motorcycles were production line products, not every machine was exactly alike or perfect. This is why I always encouraged the owners of motorcycles to attend a judging seminar or two and even to come along in the judging as an apprentice just to understand what we and how we were doing it. Most of the questions and some of the lame answers that I'm reading on this thread are due to the fact that no one showed up for a seminar or asked the right questions at a seminar or else they didn't pay attention.

Another remark was that a motorcycle is either restored, unrestored or a rider. I can see that term both ways. What I always noticed is between luck and the money that was spent or you wanted to spend, that's the only difference in these catagories. The one that I always heard is "I restored my bike, but I didn't do it exactly like original because I wanted it to be a rider, not a show bike". I probably have as many winner circle motorcycles as anyone, they are all riders. Some I ride a lot more than others. But the only main difference, if they are done correctly, is the price. Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of bikes that wouldn't even come close to being a junior first or even think of being a judgable motorcycle and these are also riders. This is why we added the period modified class. The period modified class is exactly what it says, it is for a motorcycle that was modified in it's time period from the way it left the factory, whether it was a bobber or everything you could unbolt was chromed, you added foxtails, or it looked like you hung a magnet on it and rode it through pepboys and you painted it and stripped it the colors that you wanted it to be. Just like they do with motorcycles today. Not everyone then left the bike exactly the way it left the factory. They wanted to personalize it. This is why we started this class to give some type of recognition to the owner.

I hope this clears up some of the questions. I'm not sure with all the rule changes in the new regime whether any of this is the same. I was told by the new chief judge that I would have to be replaced and not be a part of the new judges committee because I've
worked alone for so long that I did not work well with others!!!!!!!!!

Robin

[T. Cotten]

Robin!

Your effort to support the last system was far above and beyond the call of duty.

Nearly any ordinary enthusiast would have thrown his hands in the air and quit years ago.
Many of us, if not most of the membership, just avoided it altogether.

So. How do we take a page out of the current White House playbook and "not let this crisis go to waste"?

Sorry to ramble on again,

...Cotten

[bmh]

how do you "correct" an original machine? Would it not be an alteration?

...Cotten

I have said basically this same thing before. I see it at almost every meet. Someone with a nice original old machine taking it apart and swapping out parts for nicer , shinier ones. Are the replacements exactly what was taken off? or are there subtle differences because the new parts are in fact newer? Seriously they used three subtly different tank badges on 52 H-D's alone. Someday this machine may be held up as an example of what correct should be. Except now it it has been modified and indeed may actually now be an incorrect example. Why? The quest for points and prestige. The increase in perceived value that some seem to feel goes along with that. And history becomes secondary. The antique car guys took a cue from us on rusty old junk and created the Historic preservation class. The vehicles are documented , an award made if they meet a certain criteria, and then are to be displayed but not necessarily judged, just preserved and enjoyed (kinda like the winners circle). Yep could've learned some stuff from those guys, shame we broke ties with them and moved the museum to a private place that currently isn't even open to the public.

[T. Cotten]

These are circumstances where it does not make me feel good to be "right".

....Cotten

[Chris Haynes]

[QUOTE=bmh;97302] they used three subtly different tank badges on 52 H-D's alone. /QUOTE]

Brian, Can you get us pictures of the three different versions? I have chrome and stainless versions. I don't know which came when.