Judging System Question?

[T. Cotten]

Dear AMCA Members!

I have been trying to understand my Judging Handbook copy,
Although I know it is out-dated,
I still I must ask:

When a machine makes it into the "Winners Circle"...
Who did they beat to be a "winner"?

With all due respect and sincerity,

...Cotten

[Ohio-Rider]

They beat the odds.

[Rooster]

They beat the crap out of your wallet!

[Sargehere]

The "Winners' Circle" bikes have won recognition as being reliably representative of that particular make and model motorcycle as it appeared when offered for sale for the first time, in the year it was manufactured. It means future restorers, or students of the development of two-wheeled motorized transportation, can count on a Winners' Circle bike to be correct in all its details, faithful to what it looked and ran like when brand new.

We haven't judged bikes "against each other" since the 1980s, Tom. Then, it meant that the bike in question was a winner of a nebulous title of "Best Restored," but only at the particular gathering where the trophy was won, meaning that this motorcycle appeared to be more like it originally was built than the other motorcycles there, and the award was completely subjective, without regard for being over-chromed, over-dressed, or nothing like stock in many regards.
It might as well have been a "People's Choice" award for "the prettiest bike at the meet," for all the meaning it carried.

[T. Cotten]

We haven't judged bikes "against each other" since the 1980s, Tom. Then, it meant that the bike in question was a winner of a nebulous title of "Best Restored," but only at the particular gathering where the trophy was won, meaning that this motorcycles appeared to be more like it originally was built than the other motorcycles there, and was completely subjective, without regard for being over-chromed, over-dressed, or nothing like stock in many regards.
It might as well have been a "People's Choice" award for prettiest bike at the meet," for all the meaning it carried.

Sarge!

Again I appreciate your reply, and I shortened your quote to the parts that scare me most.

Too often I see the word "competition" in my handbook, totally aside from the "Competition" class.

I smell a dead horse.

....Cotten

[starklite]

I've been staying out of the judging discussion and just watching what has evolved.

My question now is:
Why doesn't the AMCA have two levels of judging.
1. The current/old system of bikes competing against themselves

2. Pleasure Class -
Let's say I just spent $25,000 restoring a Indian or Harley and it's not 100% correct, heck it's not even 90%, but I want to show it because it looks awesome, has a decked out paint and chrome job and everybody who sees the bike say's WOW! that's some bike.

But with today's judging I have no reason to take it to a AMCA meet and it stays in the garage to be taken to a local bike show where it wins 1st place. And now we, the AMCA, miss seeing these bikes.

Why don't we have a national awards for these bikes? What's wrong with a BEST OF SHOW?, and a National Show series system of points?

Can't this bring more interest and people into the sport, they are still antique bikes and isn't that what the club is about?

At the "Bator International" auction in Pasadena this past weekend I spoke to several people, builders and collectors, and they either tell clients or the clients say they don't have their bikes judged because they are happy with the bike/work of the builder and don't need someone to tell them it's 99 points to be happy with the work.

And with the new judging disclaimer you can't even use a 99 point award to advertise it for sale! So what's the point?

We need to make the meets, and judging FUN

And yes there still is a place for the current judging system, but not everyone is interested in that level. Let's get a fun "Pleasure" class started

And in the Pleasure class you can sub define Bikes ridden to the meet from the trailer queens. We need members to enjoy the bikes and ride them. Without people enjoying the bikes, the club will die, because all the bikes will become museum pieces.

Thanks for listening.

Gary Stark
Starklite Cycle
951-968-3070
888-SLC-INDIAN

[T. Cotten]

Gary!

I agree that there is plenty of room for vanity classes, but at the Chapter level. That is where newcomers can readily become involved, since only the privileged can trot across the continents. Common folk are already pushed aside enough.

Classes that can be objectively judged should remain the hallmark of National recognition. They should mean something significant, even if the rules stomp all over History.

...Cotten

[rwm]

when you try to sell your bike why can't you say "i'm an amca member and my bike scored 99 ata boy points"

[jmanjeff]

when you try to sell your bike why can't you say "i'm an amca member and my bike scored 99 ata boy points"

the new judging disclaimer

[Paps]

the new judging disclaimer

Read the newest as printed in the latest magazine. It does not read that way anymore.

[kval]

Gary!

I agree that there is plenty of room for vanity classes, but at the Chapter level. That is where newcomers can readily become involved, since only the privileged can trot across the continents. Common folk are already pushed aside enough.

Classes that can be objectively judged should remain the hallmark of National recognition. They should mean something significant, even if the rules stomp all over History.

...Cotten

Cotton
that is exactly why I pushed for "period modified" as a national recognization award. we can get to see that 53 chief all chromed out with candy apple red paint job. that is what the owner wanted his bike to look like and everybody loves to see it

[T. Cotten]

Cotton
that is exactly why I pushed for "period modified" as a national recognization award. we can get to see that 53 chief all chromed out with candy apple red paint job. that is what the owner wanted his bike to look like and everybody loves to see it

Uh, Val,...

My belief is that "Period Modified" is an un-judgeable, subjective, vanity class.

The Chapters should be able to produce any and all the awards they want, be it people's choice, chopper class, or whatever. That's the entry point for new enthusiasts, where everyone can participate and have fun.

But the prestige of a National award should be maintained by restricting to objective, judgeable classes based upon documentation and historical review.

But that's just the way this outsider sees it.
And I have already expressed my opinion that the whole system is sick!

The Founders had no idea what the future of vintage motorcycling would be,
and there was no way to forsee the reproduction industry that has evolved.
So the system's wounds have been maintained by a patchwork of band-aid
fixes, and frankly, the latest only promote the bleeding.

When a government becomes un-wieldy, and needs to re-organize, it it usually
writes a new constitution to accomodate changes for the future.
Our AMCA President could give his tenure some distinction by calling for a
convention to devise a simpler, more accessible, and relevant judging
system: One that, at least, does not destroy more History than it preserves!

Unfortunately such a convention could only be accomplished through the
electronic media.
The AMCA President is not open-minded to modern media.

So, a small group of involved parties instead squabble and scrap and toss
personal insults at each other, attempting to support their own agendas.
The organization suffers, the industry suffers, and the motorcycles suffer.

The enthusiasts don't seem to care as long as they get a trophy.

....Cotten

[exeric]

Cotten, you said you were done criticizing the AMCA judging system. Obviously that isn't true. Your repeated statement that the AMCA is 'destroying history' is what gets my goat and lures me to challenge that statement. Speaking for myself and everyone I know that restores motorcycles; I have spent many years collecting literature and studying the motorcycles that interest me. I think of myself and my colleagues as scholars who have spent countless hours trying to discover the minusia of details that go into a properly researched motorcycle. Knowledge builds on knowledge which makes the AMCA judging system a living and growing institution, but it requires positive, and enthusiastic participation to flourish. This is more than a hobby for many of us and probably is a full blown obsession so your cavaliere wave-off of what we do is most insulting.

I have yet to see anyone on this forum say they agree with you because you have never defined your obtuse concept of 'destroying history'. So, enlighten us. I'm open minded; if I'm doing something wrong I would like to know. I revere history and you may have a valid point. Please make your case and cite examples. . . . If not, do what you said you were going to do and remain silent on the subject.

[T. Cotten]

Eric!

I said "Don't address me directly, and I'll post no more..."
I was addressed, but decided to open a new thread to let the wanking cool down.

And if my previous explanation escaped you, let me make it simpler:
AMCA rules enforce restoration over conservation:
The whole idea that if one portion is restored, all of it must be, has put History to the bootheel.

Re-creating History is not preserving it: The truth in the hardware is lost forever.

....Cotten

[exeric]

That's a good point Cotten, and one that I can agree with and practice. If I have a part that is original, I set it aside and look for a part that is beat and can (in good conscience) be restored. Everyone I know does that. I have a big glass specimen case that's filled with parts like that. . . . See; we can agree on things.