Judging System Question?

[T. Cotten]

I parked my "65 FLH in a row of vendors in the main aisle at Wauseon last summer. I came back and someone was looking at it. Said Hi, and we talked a while about it, what was and was not rebuilt on it, our other bikes, etc. When he walked away, he said "NICE BIKE"! There's my winners circle. Ya'll come back now. Heah?
Mike

Mike!

I take it then that you represent the polar opposite attitude to the vanity trophy seekers.

But I gotta ask:
Wouldn't you be interested in finding out what you might learn from a panel of volunteer authorities? I mean,... if the whole beauty contest b*tchfest aspect were removed?

Considering the nightmare for conformity that '65 Big Twins represent, wouldn't that be a rare opportunity?

I'll bet the authorities would learn something themselves, as that was one bizarre production year!

And that just might have been what the Founders intended for a judging system.

....Cotten

[portagepan]

I parked my "65 FLH in a row of vendors in the main aisle at Wauseon last summer. I came back and someone was looking at it. Said Hi, and we talked a while about it, what was and was not rebuilt on it, our other bikes, etc. When he walked away, he said "NICE BIKE"! There's my winners circle. Ya'll come back now. Heah?
Mike

[T. Cotten]

Chris!

I like the word "earn" MUCH better!

"Achieve" works too.

My concern is that "winning" conjures up that I-beat-you-for-a-trophy mindset. Especially if the game becomes fool-the-judges.

Thanks again,

....Cotten

[Chris Haynes]

Thanks Chris!

That word "win" bothers me.
Is judging a competition, or not?

....Cotten

You use of the word competition is not correct. Lets change the word Win to the word Earn. We have different awards. There is not one award in each class. You can have several First awards, both Junior and Senior, in the same class. The same with the Junior Second awards. Bikes are not competing against each other. They are being judged against the condition the left the factory in. It is possible that all bikes could be judged as First, although unlikely.

[T. Cotten]

Thanks Chris!

That word "win" bothers me.
Is judging a competition, or not?

....Cotten

[Chris Haynes]

Britluv!

Gary was merely lamenting that people with shiny bikes are left out.
And when it comes to serious National judging, a system that disqualifies at 85 points does just that.

Cotten,
Machines that score less than 85 points are not disqualified from anything. They are judged along with all the other machines and the owners receive the judging form so they can see what the judges felt was wrong with their machine. You must achieve 85 points to win an award.
A machine with say 80 points only has to fix a couple small things to bring it up to 85 so it can win an award. Without it being judged and given a less than winning score the owner possibly wouldn't know what he needed to change to bring it up.
Sadly many people feel that rebuilding a bike, putting fancy paint on it, and chroming a lot of stuff is a restoration.

[T. Cotten]

Britluv!

Gary was merely lamenting that people with shiny bikes are left out.
And when it comes to serious National judging, a system that disqualifies at 85 points does just that.
There is no inclination to correct a machine that is refused.

There is plenty of room for those who wish only to "show" their machines, however, if Chapters alone accept the responsibility for vanity awards, be it 'most chrome', "most extreme paint", or my personal favorite: "Rat".

That way everybody that wants to gets to participate for a plastic mantle trophy.

But the National judging system must remain a separate, serious effort to document and authenticate historically accurate machines, and elevate the prestige and integrity of an earned National award.


....Cotten

[Britluv]

Starklite writes:

"Let's say just spent $25,000 restoring an Indian or Harley and it's not 100% correct, heck it's not even 90%, buut want to show it because it looks awesome, has a decked out paint and chrome job and everyone else who sees the bike says WOW! that's some bike."

Let's analyze this statement: First, he spends a small fortune on a job that he knows is not 90% or 100% correct, yet he calls it "restored."
Second, he wants to show it at an AMCA meet but knows it will be judged on it's originality or, in this case, it's LACK of originality. So he takes it to a local bike show
where people who know nothing award it a first place because it is "pretty."
Around here we call that the "Shiny Bike Award." It is merely mantle-piece dressing.
Third, he now wants AMCA judging to return to its status of 30 years ago, when bikes were judged on exactly those same superficial values, so he can win a trophy and advertise the bike as an AMCA National high point bike when he sells it.

See anything improper with this line of reasoning?

Or, am I cynical because, in my opinion, he wants this because he is in the BUSINESS of rebuilding and selling "pretty" bikes like this?

[T. Cotten]

Folks,

We could go on endlessly trying to sort out our different meanings for words. "Restored" means something totally different in "Walneck's" than it does to the AMCA, just I am an avid 'collector' of garbage, but not what people refer to as the 'garbage collector'.

(Well maybe.)

But there are a few words that need to be better defined in the Judging Handbook, no doubt.

A 'competition' motorcycle is an appropriate use of the word, but the word 'competition' should be stricken everywhere else.

The historical failure of the AMCA judging system is that it has failed to overcome I-beat-you-and-won-the-trophy mentality.

.....Cotten

[fillibuster]

oops. go celtics!

[fillibuster]

The dictionary defines restoration as a return to the original condition, along with various other references to original. Renovation is more of a repair, which would also adhere to the concept of PRESERVATION.
I'm likin' this more all the time, Cotten. gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg ggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggdddddddddddd dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjkkkkkk kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb,./v

[T. Cotten]

Phil!

Yes,
but we are all going to "get it' differently, because every one of our machines has a different history to display.

Only the AMCA restoration rules declare that all machines must achieve a mythical ideal, and the rest be punished.

An entry level of 85 points should instead be zero points.
If the whole purpose was to have your machine critiqued for your own information, why set the barrier so high? That only makes it a trophy competition instead of a usefull service, that all can enjoy and support.

Many enthusiasts are already aware of some faults, but would never choose to change what Granpa cobbled. I have encountered a machine where a previous owner engraved his Social Security number nearly everywhere. An otherwise highly desirable machine is dirt by AMCA restoration judging.

Conservation should come before restoration.
Only the worst of garbage should be restored.

And I know my garbage.


....Cotten
The Dumpster Diver's Motto: "Seek, and Ye Shall Find!"

[fillibuster]

quoting exeric: "I have yet to see anyone on this forum say they agree with you because you have never defined your obtuse concept of 'destroying history'" end qu

I've been sitting here a little silent in Cotton's corner, but since "obtuse" has been defined a little we have seen appreciable agreement and understanding. My own wake-up call happened when I reviewed all the original parts on my Chief, a daily runner, and then thought of the original parts necessary to build my older scouts, because so few re-pop parts are available. I'll be using rust-pitted rims and broken-finned 35-37 original cyls, to EXHIBIT this portion of history. .. am I "getting it", Cotten?

"All that glitters, is not gold" ???

[T. Cotten]

Cotton

Did you not say (on another thread or post) that you have never had a bike judged and/or you do not own a "judgeable "bike?

Rousseau!

This is Liberty Motorcycle Specialties' 31st year in business.
(A profile written in 1993 can be viewed at http://virtualindian.org/5deallib.htm)

Albeit have never stood before the judges in person, the range of machines and the scope of my handiwork that has come under scrutiny would defy description.
(Although one Panhead stands out my memory, as after the customer sold the restored machine, the new owner had it judged as un-restored, and earned 98 points... Had I presented the machine, there is no doubt the judges would never have been so generous!)

I am compelled to consider AMCA policies, and consult with customers for their opinions and preferences, daily.
Again to be frank, The Antiques Roadshow holds greater sway over their opinions than AMCA standards.

Think about it.

.....Cotten
PS: At the bottom of page 2 of the "Knucklehead Re-Stamp Job?" thread in Parkinglot Chatter I previously made this clear. Too bad I was confused as to what I was replying to!

[rousseau]

Cotton

Did you not say (on another thread or post) that you have never had a bike judged and/or you do not own a "judgeable "bike?