Judging System Question?

[rbenash]

Phil!

I don't expect anyone to rally to my radical/reactionary rant.
Its too uncomfortable.

I only hope that some of you think about it.

Somebody has to have a better idea.
After all, as Paquette pointed out: "..this subject of judging needs some serious reconsideration."


....Cotten

Definitely thinking about it - ever since I bought my father's '65 pan 10 years ago. Followed this thread with great interest. Cotton, Eric, Portagepen, Chirs's commentary aligns with what I've been trying to accommodate or understand the National rules and how they have directly impacted my project. There definitely is a need for a category between unrestored and "off the factory floor" restoration class. There's a huge gap IMHO that requires another class in the middle that requires that things are correct, yes but doesn't require EVERYTHING on the bike to be restored. Maybe a "Refurbuished" class?

[c.o.]

Because its totally un-judgeable!

Chapters should be able to conjure any vanity trophy they want.

But National awards should really mean something.

....Cotten

That is it in a nut shell.


You've promoted some thought alright Cotten. Change is iminent but it should be done carefully.

[T. Cotten]

Phil!

I don't expect anyone to rally to my radical/reactionary rant.
Its too uncomfortable.

I only hope that some of you think about it.

Somebody has to have a better idea.
After all, as Paquette pointed out: "..this subject of judging needs some serious reconsideration."


....Cotten

[fillibuster]

Cotten, I think that you've won more allies to your way of thinking than you give yourself credit for. I would bet that many agreed with you more than we all are aware. It just took a few weeks for it to shake out.
Change will be slow, probably, but input should not be suppressed, and I don't believe that it will be, so long as our demeanor is as patient as those who say that they will listen to us.
If I were a Chief Judge, I would assess a few other difficulties as being more critical and timely than your/our interest, primarily, the volume of 70's bikes compared to our 50's and earlier bikes. What I saw in the St Paul judging circle was, I think, more 70's Japanese bikes than the sum of all others. ..( maybe they had it covered, but I'm glad it wasn't my problem to provide for that.) The better they handle this, the sooner they'll entertain our ideas, so good luck to them.

[T. Cotten]

, I'll be carrying Cotten's flag (if he'll let me).

Are you nuts?

Anything attached to me personally is DOOMED.

I'm just a peevy little outsider-troublemaker stirring the pot.

Now is the time for some independent thought on everyone's part, before its too late and National awards mean little (or nothing) more than an Easyriders trophy.

I hope that idea isn't too novel.

....Cotten

[fillibuster]

qu Louie: "In the past there have been bikes judged close to 100 points that were ALL repop except the motor. That is just not right. "

Sorry Louie, your comment does not put the dead horse to rest, but extends the beating. I have agreement with your sentiment, however.

I think that the judges have enough work on their hands as it is, without adding to the chore. When Steve Dawdy says they're ready for more work, I'll be carrying Cotten's flag (if he'll let me).

[LouieMCman]

I've been reading the judging posted with some interest because of our new meet and all the changes of personal and rules. And although I have only one judge able bike, I usually stay clear of the judging. The way I see it the major changes are in the competition bikes, the other rules are some that should have been there all along. In the past there have been bikes judged close to 100 points that were ALL repop except the motor. That is just not right.
I don't see what else can come out of this thread, questions were ask and answered, and the ranting goes on. By someone not even involved in the judging process. Please put this dead horse to rest....

[T. Cotten]

Bikerdds!

While your at it, tell them "period modified" is totally un-judgeable too.
If the purpose of judging is to "correct" machines, then it has no application, or reason to be for a National Award.

Which brings up the question:
How do you "correct" an original un-restored machine?
Or a competition machine? (If it was Granpa's wildcat hillclimber, why even try?)

My perspective is that all historical reference pieces, as well as ridden-and-maintained, daily-use heirlooms, fall into a valid class best described as a "Conservation" class.

Fewer classes are better than more and more: Keeping it simple, y'know.

...Cotten
PS: You might just not want to mention me by name. It won't go over well.

[bikerdds]

Gary, just a reminder we have a class for the bikes that have been modified called Period Modified. They are based on the old Eye candy concept of what looks best in the eye of the beholder.
I would also add that while the chapter meets are meant for folks in a geographical area to get together for fellowship, it is generally the National meets where you have the large swapmeets. The thing to take from this is there is something for everyone out there. Making the chapter meets accessible is also critical to those who won't or can't make a National. Moving the chapter meets around helps this so all in a large geogrphical area can occassionally attend a chapter meet. Chapter meets normally do more road runs. Chapter meets may also judge. They can do their own thing or AMCA based judging, but ultimately for AMCA judging need to be judged when head or assistant head judge is on site to qualify for National awards, which normally would be a Nationally sanctioned meet.
There is therefor something for everyone at the National level whether you want to be in period modifed or points based when it comes to judging.
Tom, I understand your concept of not over restoring when lots of parts on a bike when changed/restored change the character more than what may seem necessary from a historical point of view. There is no format at this time to address such a thing. It is either unrestored[repaired and worn is OK] or restored as delivered to the dealer. I'll make sure your comments are referred to the judging committee, as there is validity to them.

[T. Cotten]

Let us consider attracting not just new members,
but let us consider attracting new active participants.

The vast overwhelming majority will not have the time, resources, or even the inclination to bounce from one end of the continent to the other to participate.
The real social interaction that so many consider to be rewarding "fun" happens at their local Chapter.

And Chapters need active contributing members no doubt!
So promotions and informal games and competitions should be encouraged.

My contention is that National awards, intended to preserve History, should remain formal and prestigious.

We do not need more accessible National classes,
We need more accessible Chapters!

....Cotten

[Chris Haynes]

Not everybody in the AMCA wants a "as left factory" bike. They restore the bike the way they like, not a judges opinion.

Gary Stark
Starklite Cycle
951-968-3070

Gary,
That is called customizing, not restoring.

[T. Cotten]

If getting new / more people involved involves starting a pleasure class of judging why not?

Because its totally un-judgeable!

Chapters should be able to conjure any vanity trophy they want.

But National awards should really mean something.

....Cotten

[starklite]

S
Or, am I cynical because, in my opinion, he wants this because he is in the BUSINESS of rebuilding and selling "pretty" bikes like this?

Please read my post. I asked about the option of two levels of judging.
1. The Current "As left factory" system
2. A Pleasure class - for those that don't want to restore to, or want a bike, or the bike has mismatched cases and would be DQ'ed in the level one judging category.

Not everybody in the AMCA wants a "as left factory" bike. They restore the bike the way they like, not a judges opinion.

I've stayed out the conversation, and make one observation and get accused of being, "In the business".

All I want to see is the sport/club grow, and people to enjoy their bikes. Enjoyment of the bikes is what the club is about, and everybody has different tastes of enjoyment.

If people do not enjoy the bikes, and ride them, they will end up in a museum, or in a garage or in the living room, and who will carry on the enjoyment we get out of riding old obsolete iron around the countryside?

We need to do everything possible to get "NEW" people involved. Look at membership statistics. I bet that every year the "average" age of members skews upward. If we don't get our children, grandchildren involved and riding, and working on the iron the club will age out!

If getting new / more people involved involves starting a pleasure class of judging why not?

Gary Stark
Starklite Cycle
951-968-3070

[T. Cotten]

Whoa Mike!
NOBODY should EVER tell the AMCA that I did their carb!

Anyway, the whole notion that you had gone to extremes to document your machine is precisely what the Founders would have encouraged.

Judging should be all about information, not vanity, but the vast majority of history, techniques, and personalization is lost to only be preserved in coffeetable books and pulp rag magazines.

"Provenance" often starts right this minute.

...Cotten

[portagepan]

I know you did the carb for me, and it runs great. As far as complete originality, I really don't want to rough up my covers, or degrade anything to make it "right". It is a 65. It runs like a 65. It looks like a 65. Haynes will say it has some incorrect chrome side covers, from the Shovel. I have spent a lot of money and time to get the bike close to what it should be. I mean I have a file full of paper receipts, and info. I photo'd every aspect of the work, only to lose almost all of it to the computer gremlins. I am always glad to share what little I know with others, and they all know who I am. There are a lot of us who just like old bikes, and keeping things running, etc. I am absolutely no mechanic, but I have had this down and up, with help, until it runs and stops fine. It is a big, heavy, hard to work on monster, but I love it. Anybody that has an Electra Glide knows that feeling. I do really appreciate the determination of the people who really believe in the absolute original correctness of historic machinery. And I love looking at it and learning about it. That said, I am completely completely happy with the way mine is now. Heck, who can afford another old bike anyway, these days? Nothing is better than helping someone get their bike on the road. Whether it is knowledge, garage time, a part they need, or just hauling it somewhere for them. I will never make a correction to someone on their bike unless they ask me. People might as well face it. With the size of tjis club, and the money involved nowadays, things are never going to be a simple as they used to be. I don't evn know if the clug can actually handle all of the foreign bikes coming into play. Or the real old ones, either. That just seems like another can of worms that is going to pop open soon. I like all bikes, and mostly have been riding my Yamahopper this year so far, but is there any way for the club to actually handle the influx? Heck, a few years from now, these might be the "good ol' days". Mike