Judging System Question?

[T. Cotten]

I think , in my own litte world , that I can agree with Eric & Lonnie ( both of whom I consider friends) that this subject of judging needs some serious reconsideration.--

I wish I had thought of that.

....Cotten

[Paquette]

I think , in my own litte world , that I can agree with Eric & Lonnie ( both of whom I consider friends) that this subject of judging needs some serious reconsideration. I can agree that repop bikes should not reach top honors. But there is no category for those that choose to take an original bike ( or parts there of) and finding , searching, trading, for OEM, NOS parts to build a bike. It may not be original nor reconstructed, nor restored, but is an example of how the bike would have come to the dealership- We less than rich folks have to do so-I realize that my posts are invisible so I can speak my feeble mind--Michael--6671--

[Lonnie]

Tom is correct in that there is no middle ground in AMCA judging when restoring a motorcycle. If restored, all components must be restored. I lost points on a 1948 FL for an unrestored speedometer, even though it was an almost mint speedo. I was told then, and it is true now, that a restored bike would be requried to have a restored speedometer. That being the case, I bought a restored unit before the next show and set the original one aside. I have no doubt that some other owner would have sent off that beautiful speedo to have it "fixed". In order to include additional bikes, the true survivors that fall in between restored and original, there needs to be a middle-ground class for those with only repaints, mildly done extra chrome, etc. other than Period-Modified which is in effect only a variant of a Peoples' Choice award, only in this case the People are the event organizers,

Also, there is no process in place to deal with over-restored bikes. Whether we agree with the concept or not, powdercoating and bead-blasted stainless spokes may prolong the life of the restored bike but they do not contribute to authenticity, nor does the glossy paint seen on many Sr. and WC bikes.
If the logic is to have the WC bikes function as examples to future generations, then there is no place for powdercoating or stainless unless original to that model motorcycle.

The National Corvette Restorers' Society was faced with these very same issues and over time started judging to a more realistic model, such as deducting points for super-shiny finishes not indicative of a Corvette as delivered to the dealer.

[Chris Haynes]

Cotton
that is exactly why I pushed for "period modified" as a national recognization award. we can get to see that 53 chief all chromed out with candy apple red paint job. that is what the owner wanted his bike to look like and everybody loves to see it

They do???

[LouieMCman]

That's one reason we have the Concourse D'Ordinaire show at the Southern National meet. It's a fun show on Saturday that anyone can put any old bike in. We had more in the show than the national judging on Sunday. And had everything from chromed out choppers to home built hit and miss bikes. Below are the trophies we gave out this year, next year who knows what we'll come up with....

Most Cobbled
Least Paint
Least Original
Most Rustic
Most Squalid
Most Chrome
Least Chrome
Oldest Bike

[kval]

Uh, Val,...

My belief is that "Period Modified" is an un-judgeable, subjective, vanity class.

The Chapters should be able to produce any and all the awards they want, be it people's choice, chopper class, or whatever. That's the entry point for new enthusiasts, where everyone can participate and have fun.

But the prestige of a National award should be maintained by restricting to objective, judgeable classes based upon documentation and historical review.
....Cotten

Cotton
you are right, that is why the host chapter picks those awards.

there are some chapters that do have special awards, like peoples choice or whatever, this is something any chapter hosting a national meet is free to do but unfortunatly not many do.

I totally agree with you about National judging

[exeric]

That's a good point Cotten, and one that I can agree with and practice. If I have a part that is original, I set it aside and look for a part that is beat and can (in good conscience) be restored. Everyone I know does that. I have a big glass specimen case that's filled with parts like that. . . . See; we can agree on things.

[T. Cotten]

Eric!

I said "Don't address me directly, and I'll post no more..."
I was addressed, but decided to open a new thread to let the wanking cool down.

And if my previous explanation escaped you, let me make it simpler:
AMCA rules enforce restoration over conservation:
The whole idea that if one portion is restored, all of it must be, has put History to the bootheel.

Re-creating History is not preserving it: The truth in the hardware is lost forever.

....Cotten

[exeric]

Cotten, you said you were done criticizing the AMCA judging system. Obviously that isn't true. Your repeated statement that the AMCA is 'destroying history' is what gets my goat and lures me to challenge that statement. Speaking for myself and everyone I know that restores motorcycles; I have spent many years collecting literature and studying the motorcycles that interest me. I think of myself and my colleagues as scholars who have spent countless hours trying to discover the minusia of details that go into a properly researched motorcycle. Knowledge builds on knowledge which makes the AMCA judging system a living and growing institution, but it requires positive, and enthusiastic participation to flourish. This is more than a hobby for many of us and probably is a full blown obsession so your cavaliere wave-off of what we do is most insulting.

I have yet to see anyone on this forum say they agree with you because you have never defined your obtuse concept of 'destroying history'. So, enlighten us. I'm open minded; if I'm doing something wrong I would like to know. I revere history and you may have a valid point. Please make your case and cite examples. . . . If not, do what you said you were going to do and remain silent on the subject.

[T. Cotten]

Cotton
that is exactly why I pushed for "period modified" as a national recognization award. we can get to see that 53 chief all chromed out with candy apple red paint job. that is what the owner wanted his bike to look like and everybody loves to see it

Uh, Val,...

My belief is that "Period Modified" is an un-judgeable, subjective, vanity class.

The Chapters should be able to produce any and all the awards they want, be it people's choice, chopper class, or whatever. That's the entry point for new enthusiasts, where everyone can participate and have fun.

But the prestige of a National award should be maintained by restricting to objective, judgeable classes based upon documentation and historical review.

But that's just the way this outsider sees it.
And I have already expressed my opinion that the whole system is sick!

The Founders had no idea what the future of vintage motorcycling would be,
and there was no way to forsee the reproduction industry that has evolved.
So the system's wounds have been maintained by a patchwork of band-aid
fixes, and frankly, the latest only promote the bleeding.

When a government becomes un-wieldy, and needs to re-organize, it it usually
writes a new constitution to accomodate changes for the future.
Our AMCA President could give his tenure some distinction by calling for a
convention to devise a simpler, more accessible, and relevant judging
system: One that, at least, does not destroy more History than it preserves!

Unfortunately such a convention could only be accomplished through the
electronic media.
The AMCA President is not open-minded to modern media.

So, a small group of involved parties instead squabble and scrap and toss
personal insults at each other, attempting to support their own agendas.
The organization suffers, the industry suffers, and the motorcycles suffer.

The enthusiasts don't seem to care as long as they get a trophy.

....Cotten

[kval]

Gary!

I agree that there is plenty of room for vanity classes, but at the Chapter level. That is where newcomers can readily become involved, since only the privileged can trot across the continents. Common folk are already pushed aside enough.

Classes that can be objectively judged should remain the hallmark of National recognition. They should mean something significant, even if the rules stomp all over History.

...Cotten

Cotton
that is exactly why I pushed for "period modified" as a national recognization award. we can get to see that 53 chief all chromed out with candy apple red paint job. that is what the owner wanted his bike to look like and everybody loves to see it

[Paps]

the new judging disclaimer

Read the newest as printed in the latest magazine. It does not read that way anymore.

[jmanjeff]

when you try to sell your bike why can't you say "i'm an amca member and my bike scored 99 ata boy points"

the new judging disclaimer

[rwm]

when you try to sell your bike why can't you say "i'm an amca member and my bike scored 99 ata boy points"

[T. Cotten]

Gary!

I agree that there is plenty of room for vanity classes, but at the Chapter level. That is where newcomers can readily become involved, since only the privileged can trot across the continents. Common folk are already pushed aside enough.

Classes that can be objectively judged should remain the hallmark of National recognition. They should mean something significant, even if the rules stomp all over History.

...Cotten