Judging System Question?

[T. Cotten]

So, are these differences a matter of being at the right breakfast table, or should they be logged into a reviewable database?

Just causeing more trouble,

....Cotten

[bmh]

Brian, Can you get us pictures of the three different versions? I have chrome and stainless versions. I don't know which came when.

Here they are, The first one on the blue tanks is from a late 51. These are chrome plated brass and are marked "D.L. AULD co" inside under the D. There is another smaller line of script that I can't make out. They seem to have been used until early 52. Note how square the tops of the letters are.



This next set is on a somewhat early 52. The tanks were repainted green by the current owner in the 60's but the emblem is original. These appear to be made of stainless. Note the now rounded look to the tops of the letters. This is the version that is being reproduced. Don't know if the originals were marked. Maybe someone could let me know as I do not have a set here to look at.




Sometime towards the end of 52 there was a slight change in the lettering of the O. On previous versions the lettering was flat, now the O has a dimensional appearance to it. This emblem on the red tank is actually from a 54, It's just a better pic the area where the change was made. Looks like maybe a die repair. Again I don't know if they are marked, but would love to know.

[jwl]

Cotton,

That's my understanding. I've been told at the breakfast meetings at meets where I've judged that any accessory that is period correct and doesn't detract from the bike is not to be judged. It's been a couple years since I judged but I don't think the rule changed.

Besides, werent most police bikes just civvy bikes with the police package added at the factory? I know some CHiP bikes had special items not readily available to the public. I don't know of any special serial numbers or other distictions that a judge could use to tell a bike that came from the factory as a police bike from a bike that was made into a police bike after it left the factory.

If I'm wrong I'll stand corrected.

[T. Cotten]

JWL!

So even Police accessories are to be overlooked on a civvy machine?

I wish I never let go of a siren, but running one in The Land Of Blago (and that other guy) is an offense.

....Cotten

[jwl]

Accessories, as long as they are from the corresponding period, are not judged as long as they don't detract from the bike. Your bike would be judgable in the regular class for 1963, not period modified.

[dstrieter]

Period Modified vs. Original

I have a 1963 Police FL and have documentation from the MoCo that the HD componnents are as they were manufactured and constructed. However as a Police model in 1963, the ticket book holder, radio head unit, tranceiver/tranceiver box, lower police metal storage boxes, siren, pursuit and rotating beacon lights were "after market". So would this only be able to be entered as Period Modified?

http://s460.photobucket.com/albums/q...DSC00109-1.jpg

Thanks...Dale

[Chris Haynes]

[QUOTE=bmh;97302] they used three subtly different tank badges on 52 H-D's alone. /QUOTE]

Brian, Can you get us pictures of the three different versions? I have chrome and stainless versions. I don't know which came when.

[T. Cotten]

These are circumstances where it does not make me feel good to be "right".

....Cotten

[bmh]

how do you "correct" an original machine? Would it not be an alteration?

...Cotten

I have said basically this same thing before. I see it at almost every meet. Someone with a nice original old machine taking it apart and swapping out parts for nicer , shinier ones. Are the replacements exactly what was taken off? or are there subtle differences because the new parts are in fact newer? Seriously they used three subtly different tank badges on 52 H-D's alone. Someday this machine may be held up as an example of what correct should be. Except now it it has been modified and indeed may actually now be an incorrect example. Why? The quest for points and prestige. The increase in perceived value that some seem to feel goes along with that. And history becomes secondary. The antique car guys took a cue from us on rusty old junk and created the Historic preservation class. The vehicles are documented , an award made if they meet a certain criteria, and then are to be displayed but not necessarily judged, just preserved and enjoyed (kinda like the winners circle). Yep could've learned some stuff from those guys, shame we broke ties with them and moved the museum to a private place that currently isn't even open to the public.

[T. Cotten]

Robin!

Your effort to support the last system was far above and beyond the call of duty.

Nearly any ordinary enthusiast would have thrown his hands in the air and quit years ago.
Many of us, if not most of the membership, just avoided it altogether.

So. How do we take a page out of the current White House playbook and "not let this crisis go to waste"?

Sorry to ramble on again,

...Cotten

[Robin-M]

And Robin!

I take that the coming changes in the system aren't likely to make it any simpler, accessible, or relevant than it was, huh.

(For some reason, the system as I read it in the Handbook never equated to what folks told me about their experiences.)

How does a largely apathetic membership deal with an autocracy?

....Cotten[/QUOTE]


Cotton,

Yes, you're right. For the most part they made it more complicated but with a lack of expertise and common sense and general motorcycle knowledge. So far what I've seen in the new system, they are being unapproachable. In the previous system that Kevin and I were in charge of, I was always the last one on the field at every judging event I attended. I made sure everyones questions were answered or at least addressed and answered later. Our judging system, that we were in charge of, was not an autocracy, we were performing our duties to our best possible abilities for the benefit of the preservation of the motorcycles and for the knowledge and the corrections needed for the machine and the owner. Or just answering their concerns or questions.

As one of the people on this thread was inquiring about an unrestored original motorcycle that he repainted the sheet metal to the original color and rebuilt the mechanics of the motorcycle and had the speedo repaired, but did not restore it. This is a perfect example of why Kevin and I and some of our other top judges in the previous judging system, came up with the 6 point deduction rule. You have an unrestored motorcycle that is a correct example of a certain year motorcycle, it has all the correct hardware, etc, but it was repainted, but to an original color, the rest of the machine is unrestored. This would have been judged as an unrestored motorcycle but repainted giving it the possible highest score of 94 points. Which is a top Junior First trophy. But since it was repainted, it would keep it from the top trophy, a Senior trophy. But yet it would be able to obtain a Junior First and Junior Second trophy. This would prevent someone from destroying a valuable piece of history. This was the best way we knew how to do it. Not everyone does want a restored motorcycle. Most restored motorcycles like in anything restored usually winds up being too perfect. What most people forget, these motorcycles were production line products, not every machine was exactly alike or perfect. This is why I always encouraged the owners of motorcycles to attend a judging seminar or two and even to come along in the judging as an apprentice just to understand what we and how we were doing it. Most of the questions and some of the lame answers that I'm reading on this thread are due to the fact that no one showed up for a seminar or asked the right questions at a seminar or else they didn't pay attention.

Another remark was that a motorcycle is either restored, unrestored or a rider. I can see that term both ways. What I always noticed is between luck and the money that was spent or you wanted to spend, that's the only difference in these catagories. The one that I always heard is "I restored my bike, but I didn't do it exactly like original because I wanted it to be a rider, not a show bike". I probably have as many winner circle motorcycles as anyone, they are all riders. Some I ride a lot more than others. But the only main difference, if they are done correctly, is the price. Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of bikes that wouldn't even come close to being a junior first or even think of being a judgable motorcycle and these are also riders. This is why we added the period modified class. The period modified class is exactly what it says, it is for a motorcycle that was modified in it's time period from the way it left the factory, whether it was a bobber or everything you could unbolt was chromed, you added foxtails, or it looked like you hung a magnet on it and rode it through pepboys and you painted it and stripped it the colors that you wanted it to be. Just like they do with motorcycles today. Not everyone then left the bike exactly the way it left the factory. They wanted to personalize it. This is why we started this class to give some type of recognition to the owner.

I hope this clears up some of the questions. I'm not sure with all the rule changes in the new regime whether any of this is the same. I was told by the new chief judge that I would have to be replaced and not be a part of the new judges committee because I've
worked alone for so long that I did not work well with others!!!!!!!!!

Robin

[Sargehere]

That document would be all the weight, if it was to up come to the judging field. Without it, yes, you might get dinged for not having the whole King of the Highway group except the buddy seat fitted, but the original invoice carries the day, bearing even the VIN of the bike that's in front of the judges. Documentation like yours is always nice. Without it, the next best would be contemporary magazine ads and maybe road test articles, both picturing and pointing out the specific features that came stock, or were available to the original owners. You won't have any problem at all if you bring your Panhead and invoice to the 'States, Tommo.

[Tommo]

Gerry,
I helped Dad take that bike out of the crate and assemble it.
When it arrived from the factory no seat was fitted and both were in cardboard boxes (I still have both those boxes) in a seperate packing case. Dad prefered a solo seat so that was fitted in preference to the buddy seat.
Right from the start the bike had a solo seat fitted.
I take it from what you are saying that if I turn up with a solo seat I'll get pinged because it's a King of the Highway bike but the solo seat is what Dad fitted right from the start.
Because I believe in being honest I must admit that whenever the bike was displayed way back then Dad always put the buddy seat on and most photos taken by admirers at the time show the bike with the buddy seat fitted.
There was no dealer in NZ at that time so Dad was allowed to import this bike direct from the factory (at the time the factory wanted him to become the NZ distributor) and if he had chosen to on-sell it with the solo seat only would the new owner be in a similar quandry if he still had the bike today.
"Thats exactly as I got it from the importer" he'd be saying and the judges would be calling him a fibber.
Of those two just who is trying to rewrite history? The judges or the owner.
Please be aware that I'm only using this as an example in the arguement in a bid to help resolve this issue. Surely this sort of documented evidence should carry some weight.

[Sargehere]

"If I get it judged do I have to bring both the solo and the buddy seats with me because that is the way it left the factory(?)"

You have the King of the Highway Group, and a document to prove it. It is original paint? If it still displays all the other items of the King of the Highway group, and hasn't been extensively updated, that's an original. The fact that it originally was sold with an extra seat is just a sidelight. Judges would like to see all the King of the Highway Group, however.
As far as "how a particular bike left the factory," the rules are not that specific. If it displays a tourpack, it better have saddlebags, etc. The "accessory groups" offered by the factory are expected to be complete. Or it could be a basic bike, no options.
People seem to be reading every possible exaggeration into the rules. Judges like documentation, but, by a long shot, it's not mandatory.

[rbenash]

But Ray, it's not an original. Not close to it. Someone looking at it isn't learning from it exactly how the factory painted the '65 Panheads. It's a reassembly of parts, from your description, modified to your liking and displays the results of your judgements, from your study, of what a '65 originally looked like. The closest thing to that is "restoration:" replacing missing parts and simulating the original paint. You liked the original patina of the speedo. There's no connection to the former owners for restored bikes. Every post-factory detail has been wiped out and it's taken back. You want connection to its past? Fine, but that's not restoration. It's either original, restored (a virtually unrideable "artwork," usually) or it's a rider.
In between is just that, an unjudgeable in-betweener. There are thousands like it. Don't get angry. You built what you wanted. You didn't set out to build a showpiece (not if you specifically didn't have the speedo face replaced, etc.) so don't expect national recognition for building what you liked.
There's no class for "I built what I like," except your own satisfaction and that of fellow riders who also notice and admire what you made. You made a series of decisions, and you gained a wealth knowlege about that watershed transition year in Harley history, 1965. Enjoy it and ride it. But no bike can be all things.

I have the original sheet metal with the original paint for reference. Not angry at all, just silenced. Guess I don't know what I'm talking about.
I'll continue to watch from the sidelines.