Class for Period Bobbers/Modifieds

[B. Rodencal]

At this time there is only one set of " rules" that applies to all catagories. not my decision but the clubs. Now.. rules for each catagory? not my decision either. 74' ..sorry, see you in 10 years! again, not my decision. and as I said....
Long winded vs. passionate
two different perspectives on the same persons dialog.. not an opinion either way by me. Leave it to a Marine to bring a gun to an open dialog
Example.........

Pessimist: the glass is half empty
Optimist: The glass is half full
Me... lets try a different glass.
FatDog

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

Aw come on now....I'm just kidding .....I never shot nobody I wasn't aiming for!.....Don't be too sure on having to wait 10 more years, (Actually its only 6 for my 74 XLCH) but That's another upcoming issue! I am also a member of other Clubs so I won't want for an outlet to participate in. My Glass is always full as thats how I choose to make it. I prefer to build mine up and wear them down..mile... after mile... after happy mile of riding!...After all you can always build them up again.... ....Hrdly-Dangrs

[inrustwetrust]

Thank you Mr Gagan. Preserving original ideas is a good thing. It is a way to represent what people were doing during the period. As far as wearing these bikes out, too bad. I paid my dues to get my stuff up and going and I plan to wear it out. Museum pieces are a beautiful thing. That was where I started. They can also be a millstone that can cause frustration as little things happen to them. For me, the pursuit of high point restorations ended about five years ago when I acquired a pile of Indians and parts from an old shop that raced very heavily from the twenties into the sixties. I managed to resurrect a 1926 OHV Prince factory racer and a 1925 OHV Prince Privateer racer to running original unrestored condition. I ran the 1925 Prince at Davenport last year and plan to run it again this year.The privateer was the education. It was built from all of the stock parts that Indian used in their board track bikes. The builder also added some touches that made the bike very fast in spite of being a single cam bike. To me the privateer is the better of the two. It shows individualism, a persuit to be better than the best and a remarkable display of craftsmanship of the period. The building techniques of the period relied more on a good pair of hands backed up with a brain, unlike today where it seems that a traditional apprenticeship is lost to a CNC machine. It seems a shame to throw all of this work away to to make a"correct" museum piece. I am currently building a 1928 OHV Prince street machine that was heavily modified. Mods include 1933 sump, frame mod to accept a better magneto, flat bars and clipped tin. It is going to be a meticulous "restoration" with parts falling in the 1928-1933 era. Why am I building a shiny bike? Because all of the parts were bent, rusty, hacked, corroded, worn out, or basically junk. It's being built from all of the parts from that shop. The inspiration to build it up again was the sump modification. No doubt I could be building a perfect stock 1928 Prince. I just feel like I am carrying on what that shop started doing 80 years ago. With the Sport Scout collection of parts I have built a couple of bikes. They're mongrels, but they go out. I've got no problem doing anything on one. The best thing about building is that one really can learn a lot about the evolution of the machine by fitting the pieces together from a span of years. I'm not wrecking anything. 100 years from now, if they feel compelled to put things "right", have at it!

[B. Rodencal]

Precisely my point. My 1939 WLDD is going to be a true period bike too. Is it all 1939, no... 1938 ride control (I have a 39 I just like the look of the 37-38) bars are short custom speedster with 16-34 spirals, 40' and later oil feed pump, Model A turn signal (not stop lamp) for the brake light, later tanks with the instant reserve, 40' trans, etc. will it be a perfect example of a 39' ? no. Will it be a great example of a "Period Modified bike?" I believe yes. will it be judgable according to the gospel of the AMCA judging hand book? no. do we .."Change the rules to fit a new class?" I say no. It's to big a can of worms that once opened may not be able to be closed. I agree with letting the chapters handle the class on a meet to meet basis, a special award immune from class judging. The problem that this creates is the wide range of descrepancy from meet to meet.

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

Now your talking inrustwetrust! The best motorcycles are those that are kept running! I love old bikes and those 100 point jewels are great to look at, but what the hell good are they if you can't use em'! If no one bought those old bikes from the 'Dealers' and took them out to the streets and race tracks, you wouldn't have anything to restore! Hell they would have went the way of the dinosuers...sitting in some damn museum! Making no history other then some 'Factory' sold it to some 'Dealer' that went out of business cause no one wanted to get them 'Dirty' or 'Dented'...Have fun restoring it, then go out thrash em', use em' up and let it em' take their bumps and bruises....mores the better for it! If you want to justify your 'Big Buck' restorations as being the only true 'Original' fine, but don't sit there and tell me that my 'Original' as used motorcycle doesn't qualify to be Judged on its own merits....Bull****!....Someday, these old bikes will probably not be used anymore cause you can't get any Gasoline....Then and only then should they be be put up in a Museum...until then let's keep making history!....We can make a Judgeable Class for these Historicaly Significant motorcycles and we owe it to them and the men that use em'!!.....Hrdly-Dangrs

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

NO DOUBT ABOUT IT...

Fatdog, you have answered your own and others questions. You would not be eligible to be 'Judged' in the Bobber/Modified catagory because you used Later then 1939 Parts. (If 'YEAR OF MANUFACTURE 'were the set criteria) same as 'Competition Class') Your bike would be welcome to line up with the others and make for great comparisons and conversations, and I for one would love to see it! But,(CORRECT ME IF I'M MISTAKEN) like someone who puts his first 'Stock' machine into the 'Factory Stock' catagory he is attempting to have Judged. If there is a part that is incorrect, he would not be 'JUDGEABLE' at that show until he makes the corrections or shows by way of historical photos/writing that indeed the part(s) are correct and brings it to be Judged at the next show in the next Chapters State. Thus the need for a National Standard for Judging Criteria so there is a 'Class' at all the other Chapters that we could participate in. As to T.Cottens question, "Who is qualified to Judge it"?... WE ARE!!...at least those of us willing to participate in the Judging of these bikes. Who the hell was qualified to Judge the first antigue motorcycles when the Club started years ago??!! NOBODY!!.....it was a learning curve...I don't understand why some of us are making these 'Bobbed/Modified' motorcycles out to be some great mystery?? These were 'Factory' built bikes sold at one time thru 'Factory Dealers', but were 'Modified' to suit their riders and the type of riding they needed to do! They are as relevant to motorcycling 'History' as much and in some cases more then the 'Original' bike itself!! We truly do an injustice to these motorcycles and their builders by referring to them as some kind of 'Novelties'. My motorcycles are no 'Novelty' they are the "REAL DEAL", built by 'MY' hands alone and I would pit them against any 'Factory Stock' correct motorcycle any day of the week! .Mine are FASTER.....BETTER BUILT AND MORE QUALITY ASSEMBLED...and BETTER SUITED FOR THE PURPOSE I INTEND FOR THEM...then any 'Factory' built motorcycle of its day.....And its 'Period' correct to boot!!.....Thus I show the Passion for what I preach..... HAVE A NICE DAY...Hrdly-Dangrs

[B. Rodencal]

In a nutshell, I'm not going to have the bike judged, I have never and probably never will. i don't need the pedigree, because my bikes aren't for sale. I thought the class was a good idea so I set forth to build a bike suitable for it. As I will 'line it up' and let everyone check it out. but again it will not be judged as I have no reason too. In the immortal words of Bob Marley .....Judge Not. Until what I feel are some real issues that need to be addressed with the process, E.G. "The Wauseon Mark Jonas Incident" mark my bikes Display only.

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

NO AWARDS NEEDED....JUST RECOGNITION

Fatdog, I'm not looking for any Award either. The 'Judging' itself is not to get some coveted Senior Award as in a Total Correct Stocker. No 'Award' need be made other then perhaps your Judging sheet which recognizes the 'Bobbed/Modified' motorcycle to be 'Historically Correct' to its Year of Manufacture. Yours would be 'Period Correct' same as mine. I will have to make a few changes should I want to be 'Historically' correct and want it to be 'Judged'. Its more an exercise in participating in the 'Judging' field itself, while having fun and without any pressure of spending a lot of money trying to get a 'Concours' Award! Remember, our main goal is RECOGNITION AND PARTICIPATION! Leave the Big Senior Awards to those Factory Stock Correct members that seek it!... ..Hrdly-Dangrs

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

Another Devils Advocate...

Well, looks like theres not too much else for me to say, so its been fun once again playing at Devils Advocate. Time for this old LONG WINDED Jarhead to find some other topic to start up! I'll sleep on it!....The wife just said I have to leave the .45 cal on the night stand....damn...the things I gotta do for a little PASSION....."Happiness is a warm gun'....Goodnight boys and girls....sleep tight...The US MARINES have things well in hand over there.....OORAH!..... Old Corp Hrdly-Dangrs

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

2ND WIND.....

Well after a good nights sleep and 'A LITTLE CO-OPERATION FROM THE LITTLE MISSUS' , looks like I caught my SECOND WIND...HA!....Fatdog, I just want to say that I'm glad your on board for this 'Class' and have committed to building what I'm sure will be a very good example of a 'Period' Bobber. That's putting your money where your mouth is!...So now I'd like to say to those who sit on The Judging Commitee that this type of dedication and enthusiasm should not go unnoticed. While Fatdog has said he doesn't plan to have his bike Judged, (though I'm sure that if he wanted to he could present a true 'Historically Correct' example of a 'Bobber' that could match any Full on Stock Restoration for accurate details) it still would be a credit to our Club to create the venue for others who may wish to do so. I think that this 'Historically Significant Class' of motorcycle has the potential of getting many more of our members to participate in 'ALL' the 'Judging' aspect of our Club. I would not be surprised if this 'Class' became one of the most popular and largest venue of member participation. Even amongst those who strive for a 'Historically Correct Factory Stocker'. We should always be looking to expand the activities within our Club to include 'ALL' our Members interest. And we can do so and still be true to our primary edicts. We have a chance in 2003 to expand our Clubs range of participation and outlets of materials/ideas to do it. Both with the 'Bobber/Modified' Class and the 25 Year Rule. There are some who feel we may just become another 'Custom Bike' show by doing so. But this needn't be the case, because we have the benefit of our Learned History to draw from, we can adopt these new changes and and incorporate them to be a great asset to our Club. And just as importantly, we can do so while still keeping these changes 'HISTORICALLY CORRECT'. The inclusion of these changes will not in any way deminish the 'Prestige' of our Club. The importance of the Senior Award bestowed on Correct stock restorations is not threatend in any way by these changes. Those of us who are for these new 'Additions' wish to do so without undermining the Clubs goals. We think it can be done, and will benefit our Members and the AMCA in more ways in the Future. The 'Future' will always bring changes to a Club like the AMCA. The trick is to make them fit into our 'Old Style'! An open mind will always spring forth great new ideas, but a closed mind merely stops working....Finally..TO ALL THOSE MEMBERS THAT ARE READING THIS AND OTHER FORUMS ON OUR WEB SITE, BUT HAVE YET TO WAYIN...TAKE A FEW MINUTES AND PARTICIPATE IN THESE DISCUSSIONS...YOUR INPUT AND IDEAS ARE MOST WELCOME!..... ...NOW I'M OUT OF WIND... Hrdly-Dangrs

[AdminGuy]

I enjoy reading your posts -and always get a good laugh. My bobber is a transitional move. I just want to get the lump of rust on the road. The pretty stuff can happen over time.

I am wondering who can tell me more about the rear push bars that are found on a few bobbers. What's the history behind that.

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

Admin Guy...Are you referring to the small low style 'sissy' bars or the chrome bars that that were sold in the Accessory catalogs that looked like 2 and 3 horizontal round bars w/ thin vertical flat connectors that would bolt to the front and rear fenders??........Can't picture in my mind what your referring to exactly?....The only 'push' bar I've ever known were the 'low' style sissy bars used on early hardtail Dragsters and 'Bobbers' which eventually morphed into taller style 'sissy' bars of the sixties..... As for the Posts....some stuff I'm serious about... some stuff I'm B/S'ing about....some stuff I know and then theres some things even I'm not sure what the hell I'm talking about!.....I'll leave that to you guys to figure out. Just throwing the bull and what the hell....maybe I'll learn something over this winter......since I can't do much of anything else what with the the crappy weather and unusually hugh amounts of salt on the roads! Would like to see some of the other hundreds of members jump on board to see what they're thinking.....Later.. ...Hrdly-Dangrs

[AdminGuy]

Yup, I hear ya. It will happen over time.

Push bar rear fender. Small curved loop. I guess to bump start the bike on salt flats. Curve matched the fender but 4" higher. I think it was like an extended fender stay.

Was looking at a shot of David Edwards SS IND Bobber. The eight ball that was in the Gugg show.

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

But Can We Get There From Here...

So, it seems we've agreed to disagree on how to go about introducing this 'Class' into the AMCA. Some of us (myself included), would like to add a 'Judgeable' aspect to the 'Class'. Others see it as a threat to the 'Original Restored' doctrine of the AMCA. For me, just the legitimization of the 'Bobbed/Modified' Class on a 'National' level would be a great start! I hope we can do this. As for the potential 'Judging' of the 'Bobber/Modified' Class itself, I feel it is dueable and if not started across the board, perhaps it could be introduced on a 'Trial Basis'. While some of us will likely never have a motorcycle 'Judged' in any catagory, simply because it doesn't interest them to do so, a 'Period Correct Class' recognition is enough. But what of those guys who might like to go the extra mile and create a 'True Historically Correct' "Bobber/Modified" motorcycle? For some of us, this machine might be the closet we'll ever get to a 'Class' of motorcycle that could get them involved in the 'Judging' aspect of our Club. Why not try to make it available to them? So lets take some time to see if we can. Let's use the 'AMCA Handbook of Judging' to do it. FIRSTLY: SECTION I, General Policy reads: "The overall objective of AMCA judging is to evaluate an antigue motorcycle which is in original condition or has been restored to the same state as when the dealer received the motorcycle from the factory. Any accessory shown in the original factory brochure or parts catalog, sales literature or other company publications to be used for the model year involved, will be accepted for judging. The final result of accurate and honest evaluation of a motorcycle by a judging team will be the determination of the deserved award for the owner's efforts." Initially we can see that B/M's will not fit the "Original/Restored to Original Condition state when delivered to a Dealer". However, what about the 'Class' now set up for 'Competition' motorcycles? If as I'm of the understanding (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong), the 'Competition Class' is open to 'ALL' Competition motorcycles both 'Factory', 'Privateer' and Aftermarket Period Competition Motorcycles set-up by any individual for the purposes of a 'Racing/Competing' nature. If that is a correct assumption, at this point would you agree that 'Bobbers/Modifieds' fit into the same general criteria of the 'Competition Class' with regards to 'Period' Mods?? Could we further assume that the 'Bobber/Modified' Class would be equally eligiable for Judging under this Criteria or exception?? Any thoughts on this Pro or Con before I continue?...... ...Hrdly-Dangrs

[mcarver]

bobbers, privateers, and judging not

Ok, here's my two cents worth.....
1) I like to ride motorcycles, especially interesting/old ones.
2) I like old stuff, especially digging through old barns, sheds, houses, junk piles etc.
3) Everything I have is meant to be used and when you use something you can't help but cause wear or think of ways to improve it over time. The thought of a static display drives me insane!! I don't have any of my toys left from when I was a kid, they all got worn out and loved to death.
4) Imagine this: someone (any time period) buys a motorcycle, new or used. This enthusiast rides his bike and wears parts out as well as finds ways to improve it (cosmetics as well as performance and safety issues). If the enthusiast improves or repairs the bike over several years, how many of the repairs or improvements would pre-date the year of manufacture of his beloved machine???? If improvements became available (free engine clutch, multispeed transmission, better brakes, improved electrics 6v vs 12v, etc, etc) would any of us expect a true rider to not "upgrade" or "improve" his bike???
5) If I were to find a bike with "period mods" I would do what I could to preserve it. Let's not forget that once restored, a machine can be restored infinitely again, whereas originals, including period modifieds cannot be truly recreated. That's not to say they can't be replicated, of which I am in favor.
6) I guess this shows that I am indifferent to judging and don't intend to have anything of my own judged, but I respect the desire of others who do want to have their machines judged.

As for myself, I am putting together a 1908 Indian diamond frame magneto ignition single. I started with an origninal "found in the woods" frame and rear wheel and have been slowly adding to the pile. I plan to build it up as a "privateer" or "homebuilt" hot rod using parts up to about 1912 or '13 vintage. As my guide I try to imagine the owner/rider/builder studying and dreaming over magazines and ads for new accessories and improved technologies, riding and yes, wearing parts out, repairing and replacing parts always improving where possible. This guy's intention was only to make his bike better. If there is a class set up that it fits, I would love to display it, and might even have it judged. I just don't care to get involved with any "splitting of hairs" debates on the criteria... I just want to enjoy antique motorcycles.

This club is a great way to share thoughts, provide encouragement and inspiration and build friendships... all while playing with motorcycles; let's try not to lose sight of our goals and dreams. I didn't intend to ramble on for so long but thanks for the opportunity to share my thoughts.

Mike Carver
#3349