Class for Period Bobbers/Modifieds

[inrustwetrust]

This is a good discussion. If I've irritated anybody I apologize. I have made some very sweet high point bikes ( restored). The persuit is long, enduring, often frustrating but yet when the bike is done it is rewarding, especially when you get the nod from your peers. The problem is that we are scraping the bottom of the barrel with bikes that can be restored. What do we do with all the leftover parts that are hacked, rotted, bent and mutilated? Let's build something! When I look around at an AMC meet I see people like me that enjoy old bikes and are having fun playing with them. The majority have never had a machine that would break 85 points in an AMC category. We all take pride in our work and a little pat on the back once in a while isn't so bad. As far as diluting the "pedigree" we all seek with a high point AMC bike, who cares as long as the award is accurately represented? Period built out of period parts, that's what most of us are building out of anymore, be it a 95+ point bike or some piece of creativity that one of our fellow members took great pride in building and hopefully is using. We are in the year 2003 and to keep an interest in the hobby is important. What is so wrong with being creative and having fun? The value of rare parts seems to have always regulated the misuse of those little jewels that may worry some. If anything, the addition of mongrels that many of us are building right now should increase the value of the true pedigree bikes, and of course' the original unrestored machines. But, who knows, maybe people might seek a clean original recent creation. Any restored machine, to a good eye, is never the same as an original unrestored machine. As stated before, I have done many high point bikes but they never are the same as an unrestored machine and in my opinion, are created machines once they have been restored. Beautiful, gorgeous, machines that are a joy to look at, but yet the restored machines have something that has been lost. When it comes to fresh paint and plating, we're all a bunch of losers to a degree. But at least we're in good company!

[inrustwetrust]

I think I killed this one. What always lingers is conversations like ;"How stupid were you?", in the chatter. It is a tough choice to make and hopefully we are making the right choice. Or is this an endless, maddening jigsaw puzzle that we feel obligated to put in it's right place? (all of the bits and pieces)

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

Big Heads Think Alike

I'm with you inrustwetrust! Don't worry about upsetting anyone! Hell, I think I've been doing a good job of that myself! This Forum is here to be used! I wish more of our members would chime in on these discussions! Hell I've never known a Biker or 'Motorcyclist' (for the more 'Gentile' types of us) Ha..Ha.. who ever lacked of something to say! Maybe its just getting past the keyboard or mouse that's holding them back. Listen I'm SHORT, IRISH, FUZZY and I got a BIG HEAD...no really, I got a BIG HEAD!...And according to my Wife, thats my good points!...but that hasn't ever stopped me from getting involved or opening my big mouth either! Ideas should be put out there for others to share, view and think about! I love the AMCA. I think its a great club full of great like and unlike minds. It's come a long way and I like to think I've contributed in it's success in my own way (going to the meets, paying my dues, buying and selling parts and generally telling everyone I know about it!) But every Club should be open to changes and improvements! Just look at this Forum that we're on! Some will work and others won't. But the worst thing we can do as a Club is 'Stagnate'. I also go to many other M/C meets along the East coast and can see the differences in each. Two things I would like to see change and feel could be changed without affecting the Club negatively, yet provide a very positive effect for many of our members, is the current 35 year Rule to a more realistic (in terms of making more motorcycles and their parts available to a wider group of members) to 25 years. Also I would like to see the creation of a new Catagory (Bobbed and Modified) added to allow a larger participation of members in the Judging and displaying arena for their Historically significant motorcycles at an affordable price range. The Club can and should open its avenues of participation to members who are on the lower side (myself included) of the financial scale. It can be achieved without sacrificing any of the ideals or things we currently enjoy in the Club. I have expressed my views on these and other topics and will continue to do so (Geez, listen to all those groans coming out my speaker). I hope that you and the other members in our Club will continue to do so also. Wouldn't it be great to see our Forum full of discussions on all the topics from British bikes to old Indians and everything in between. OK, I got to get off this Soap Box cause my Big Head is getting dizzy....... .......BIG HEAD...small brain..but Happy Hrdly-Dangrs

[61 panman]

Big head huh is that physically or mentally? Sorry I could not resist that one. Anyway it is nice of the misses to point out your good points. Mine has not gotten around to that yet she is still stuck on always pointing out my less than positive traits. I would post my bad points however by now I have tuned out any conversation relating to my negative features and to tell you the truth I cannot think of any, exceptin... maybe I can annoy others on occasion.
So I have always pondered what makes us different, us people who are infatuated with old motorcycles. I have Exhausted many similarities amongst us but none fit. However you guys may have stumbled onto the missing link. Maybe something in us, placed there into our psyche by the good Lord himself to make us special, has given us the courage to annoy. Proudly,and without fear of reprisal.
Therefore let us go forth and annoy wether it be on our birthday Takin up space on the couch burpin and fartin voicing the command "honey BEER me" . Or gloating about a sunny days ride while others shiver thru a cold northeast winter, Oaklahoma gloating no less!
We can annoy because we are the riders of the best damn machines on the planet.
nuff said.
Panman

[Pete Gagan]

Hi Hrdly Dangrs & Panman:
We have on the agenda for the next board meeting, among other things, a discussion re dropping the 35 years to 25, and we already have a period modified class which has been run at Harmony, and will appear at other meets. Its fun, and gets some very interesting machines out.
We won't stagnate!
Fellow motorcyclist (and biker)
Pete Gagan, Prez

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

HOW DOES THE VOTE WORK??

Pete, how would these changes come about. What proceedure would follow. I mean, would this 25 year Rule and the Bobbed/Modified Class be a Member Majority type vote? Just curious how it works......Hrdly-Dangrs.......PS...Can't wait to get out to the show's this year. Oley can't come soon enough and Harmony is my favorite show (CLOSE BY)! This years snow and salt has kept me in doors too long!...Good thing I found the AMCA Forum...a GREAT Tech/Info site as well as a 'good ol' BS outlet....Yeah I know, I've been doing a fare share of piling it up...HA!!.....

[Pete Gagan]

Hi Hrdly:
Because the 25 year thing is a major constitutional matter, the Board will not make a final desicion at the spring meeting, but will act on it one way or the other at our Davenport meeting. This gives the Board members a chance to not only think about it for a while, but get feedback from their other contacts within the Club. I will also be asking for feedback via the "President's Page" in the magazine. Interestingly, the reaction appears almost universally positive. One well known member responded with "That would be terrible!" and later called and said that after he'd thought it over, "You know thats actually a pretty good idea!" And so it goes.......
You'r right about the website. I know as time goes on, it will get more and more popular.
You should live on the west coast, where there is no snow, and things are green all year 'round. It does rain occasionally, though.
The period modified thing is up to the judges. The judging commitee will meet again this year at Wauseon, and I'm sure that will again be a hot topic, and I attend as well. The Board usually rubber stamps any decisions made by the judging committee, as they are the experts.
Pete

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

2003 Calendar 'Injun' Bobber Answers All Questions

If you've any reluctance to or still question why there should be a 'Bobber' Class, you need only look to the 2003 Calendar, more precisely, Aprils cover bike! A nice example of a 'Period' Injun' Bobber! Now I ask you, would you have any problem 'Judging' this motorcycle for 'Authenticity'??....... ...Hrdly-Dangrs

[T. Cotten]

Better wait until you read the rules.

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

Rules Are But A Guidline....

Yes, the rules may or may not affect how many of us who are interested in this 'Class' will actually participate in the Judging criteria (should the AMCA adopt a 'Bobber/Modified Class). But we should remember that the main idea is to create an outlet by which many of us can participate in a 'Judging Class' that requires less of a financial investment but still consist of 'Historically Correct and Significant' motorcycles! I have been around motorcycles since I was born and my parents rode to Laconia back in the fifties. There is no doubt in my mind where the 'Bobber' and 'Modifieds' fit into Motorcycling history! The Class for Bobbers would be the same as any other. Start at 100 points and start deducting for Non-Period parts for the given year of the Bike. A standard will, after a short time present itself. But one significant differance between the 'Full On Correct Restoration' guys and the 'Period Bobbers/Modifieds' guys is we're not looking for the AMCA to bestowe some prestiges Award on us that will insure us a $55,000.00+ Sale at a J.Woods' Auction. Our 'Bobbers' are keepers! We built them 'OUR' way, the way 'WE' like them, the way the Factory meant to!..HA.. Oh and by the way, the Ford rear tail light is Period Correct and was a common modification back then (And still is till this day!).....Bobbed and Modified Hrdly-Dangrs

[T. Cotten]

Okay.
Suppose the intent is to open up eligiblility to real-live-streetdriven vintage novelties.

But a year-spread limitation makes your 12v electrics a fatal fault. ! Suddenly "authenticity" becomes a matter of taste vs. practicality.

You can either preserve motorcycles, or you can preserve motorcycling.
Once way you embalm motorcycles. The other way, you destroy them, mile by mile by mile.

I'm all for enlarging the scope of our preservationism. I would like to see healthy novelty showings.....but it is best handled on a Chapter basis, thus leaving the National Judging uncompromised.

[Pete Gagan]

Period Modified machines date not only from the fifties, and later, but also from a much earlier period. I have a 1912 FN four that came from Cuba in three suitcases. The frame has been dropped at the rear of the tank to allow a lower saddle height, and it has flat racy handlebars that some sport in the distant past fitted. As I restore it, I looked at these well crafted mods, and decided I liked it that way, and that is the way it shall be. It even has an aftermarket, period front brake, which is a usable device. Its a two speeder, with a clutch, so will be quite usable.
A friend from England, who collects and restores early bikes was consulted while he was here, and he agreed with my take on the subject. He said, "I have something I am sending you for that bike. It will be perfect for it". I more or less forgot, until a couple of months passed, and I received in the mail a period overhead camshaft conversion for an FN. So I will have a very interesting 1912 hot rod bobber!
Pete Gagan, Prez.

[T. Cotten]

Great story Pete!

So,...who's qualified to judge it????

This is why I feel "Most Unique", "Period Custom", and other specialty awards are fine if handed out by Chapters.

But it is a real threat to the prestige that a well-earned National award deserves.

....Cotten

[B. Rodencal]

Apples vs. Oranges or.. Ice cream vs. Lactose intolerant

I have been wathching this topic for some time.. and I feel it is now that I must comment. I believe everyone has made viable comments.
Cotten,
You are a busy man.. or a man of few words. Depending on the perspective. both hold true. you get to the point with searing truth in a plethra of ways.
Dangers,
You are long winded.. or passionate. either way you are grounded in your beliefs.
Peter,
You are the voice of Democracy (President)...or the evil dictator with a personal agenda! (not my words, taken from letters to the editor.)HA! HA!

Here is my take....
I . as cotten says, am an embalmer.
I take no offence to this as it is the path I have choosen most often. I take a lot of flack for it from the fellow club members who choose to "destroy" (Cotten's word's) their bikes mile by mile. I respect their opinion too. They often try to convert me to "The Dark Side" (my Word's) even though I keep my "Morals" (again my words) to myself. (E.G. I do not try to keep them from " riding" their bikes.)
I have Embalmed several bikes, the latest being seen on the cover of the AMCA summer issue 2002 "Quality Time" artical. (Please note: this bike has never gone through the judging process...will not, and I have no intention of selling on the open market, let alone J. Wood, and still made the cover of this prestigious magazine in which I feel humbled to be honored with the cover!I did not know Rick Schunk the editor until we confered about this artical, hence I am not part of the network.) I currently am in the process of ressurecting 2 more bikes, a 1942 WLC that will be destroyed mile by mile by my brother (his choice), and a 1939 WLDD that will be... well I'm not quite sure (My motor builder says he wants to flog my motorcycle quite profoundly and that during the process of possibly overbeveraging at a Green Bay Packer Game we attended, I ageed. Since I am am man of my word, it will be flogged.). I had heard of the "Bobber" class and thought it would be a challenge to produce a motorcycle of this niche.
My biggest problem in the past with AMCA rules, and I have addressed this in the judging section, is that Disqualification will commence if the motor number is not legit with the year being restored. Hence... if an fellow buys a bike circa, 1941 (IN 1941) and in 1946, blows his cases out, and heads off to his dealer in 1946 obtains replacement factory cases, which was common for the time,, and is given ...due to STATE TITLING LAWS, a STATE ISSUED TITLE, and VIN NUMBER. and the state retains his title. the subsequent owner.. circa 2003 (in 2003) will be therefore DISQUALIFIED>not eligible in the future. there fore any "green block post war era car" should be ineligable in vintage car judging. But more so, WHAT ABOUT ALL OF THE FELLOWS THAT CAME HOME FROM THE BIG ONE AND BOUGHT A SURPLUS WWII WLA AND BOBBED IT? THEREFORE THE WLA BIKES MUST BE RENDERED DISQUALIFIED AS THEY COULD HAVE NEVER EXISTED AS ARE THE DEALER REPLACEMENT BIKES IN HISTORY BECAUSE HARLEY NEVER MADE A WLA FACTORY BOBBER RIGHT???????
See?! ....still two ways to look at everything.
Until the golden rules are changed, he with the gold will still rule. Bill Rodencal AMCA #5198

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

Is it reasonable to assume that a 'Period' Bobber/Modified motorcycle could be held to the same general standards of Judging as that of a 'Competition' motorcycle restoration? 'Period' Bobber/Modified motorcycles are the same bikes as your 'Factory' stockers and Competition bikes! The differences are in what has been removed or modified for performance or general asthetics. I believe as do others that a set of general 'Period' correct rules could be written to develop this catagory. The question as to 6volt vs 12volt is not a big deal. If the Rule for 'Period' was say 'Date of Manufacturer and earlier, then if your Bobbed/Modified motorcycle came with 6volt and you are building a true 'Period' Correct Bobber/Modified motorcycle and wish to have it judged in this catagory, then it must meet the 6volt rule (provided that no 12volt period mods were being made at the time) or its not eligible. Or perhaps a 12volt rule could be written to allow the use of 12volt electrics in all years. (Akin to the current use of Powdercoating on frames?) Simple. Remember, we're asking for a true 'Period' Correct catagory for judging these motorcycles, We simply wish to show our Historically correct and Historically significant motorcycles! At least thats what I have been touting. When my '74' Drag bike becomes eligible for AMCA judging it will be correct to its year. And yes I plan to drag race it as it is built! Correct to its Period and to what the motorcycle was modified to be! Of course this is my opinion and you have yours. But I would like you to take into consideration that there are a lot of members who simply cannot afford to take their bike to that full 100 point restoration, nor do they necessarily want to. A reason for seeking a National judging criteria would be to give all our members thru out the Clubs Chapters an equal opportunity to participate in their chosen motorcycle catagory. What good does it do members in California to know that the Harmony, NJ Chapter has a 'Bobbed/Modified' catagory if in fact their own chapter does not?? An attempt to make this catagory available to all its members should be made. As in anything new it will take time to develop, but with reasonable guidlines and a whole- hearted attempt at making it work, we can add another legitimate Historically significant catagory to our Club. While allowing more of our members an opportunity to participate in the Judging arena. We differ as to our methods only. As a man approaching the age of 50, I tend to be a little long winded perhaps, but only in an attempt at building a scenerio or idea thru words to best get a point across. However I can assure you that as a former Marine Corp Sergeant I can be a man of very few words, up close or at 500 yards with an M16 and no scope!..HA..HA.. .....Gentleman HardCorp Hrdly-Dangrs