Otis Chandler "1907" Harley in Fall Issue

[jurassic]

1908

if you look close at the new factory lineup photos it appears that the 1908 is the real missing link.notice that it has a harley front fork,like the 1909 ,not the sager type.also the cylinder looks more like 1909,quite a few less fins.and it has a toolbox.if this is representive of a 1908 then all these 1907's in the world ,that we have been calling 1908's,may not be.or could it be a very late 1908?? which just goes to show that harley was continually changing no matter what the date.either way this bike appears to be one of the last strap tanks.we all know that 1909 numbers start at 2500,so if we could find the vin number on the factories 1908 then all these questions could maybe be answered by counting backwards.

[silentgreyfello]

Good point, Jurassic. Along the same lines, the 1908 that now resides in the museum in Anamosa, IA (serial #2177) has less fins than the rest of the orig. straptankers that I have seen. It is also the highest vin number that I have observed. I have photos of that bike somewhere and will post if I find them.

For what it's worth, here is a photo of my 1906 or 1907 HD brochure. Notice the filler on the side, no exhaust cutout, smooth fenders. In the specifications, it states 3" mudguards. Of course, it is an artist rendition, but the bike is very similar to the popular photo of Walter on the 1907? in front of the first building.

[silentgreyfello]

Also of note... the early brochure states "with Single and Double Cylinders". I think they were getting ahead of themselves! They dropped that for the 1908 brochure, as it obviously had not yet panned out.

[Earl]

Good comments by jurassic and silentgreyfello.

BUT, remember what we're looking at. A photo of a line-up of motorcycles. When was the photo taken? How long after the bikes were originally produced?

Even looking at early Factory photos of the early machines can be deceiving, because of when the early machines were added to the collection, and when the photos were taken.

Now would be the ideal place for HarleyCreation to jump in with his knowledge of the Factory collection and the early photos and a particular court case.

[silentgreyfello]

As I said earlier, "it almost makes one think that these bikes were pieced together a bit". However there is some merit to Jurassic's comment about the 1908 (at least later ones) having less fins. The bike in the museum in Anamosa, IA is an original, numbers-matching bike (#2177) that has fewer fins. Was this a mid-1908 change?

[silentgreyfello]

One more thing on #2177.... it has a toolbox!

[Earl]

Originally posted by silentgreyfello
One more thing on #2177.... it has a toolbox!

Look in "At the Creation", on page 167.

The top photo shows another example of a 1908 model with a tool box. But the cylinder on this machine appears to have all of it's fins.

[Earl]

Just saw another 1908 model with a toolbox.

Look in "At the Creation" on page 145.

It's a picture postcard of Arthur Davidson during his eastern sales trip in the summer of 1908.

[Earl]

And still another 1908 model with a toolbox.

Look in "At the Creation" on page 125.

Photo credit is from the periodical "Motorcycle Illustrated", date unknown.

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by AdminGuy
A. the photo evidence is halarious-comical proof. Yes, Indian pulled the same shenanigans. I'd like to see someone drudge that up also.

There is a good Indian "fib" footnote in the Harley-D Creation book indeed showing they were pulling the same stuff. Maybe I should post it.

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by exeric
I remember two very frustrating discussions I have had about early H-D history. The first was at a chopper shop I occasionally visited. The guy behind the counter knew I liked old bikes and wanted to quiz me using some "Easyriders" article as a proctor. I did pretty well until he got to the question; "How many motorcycles did H-D make in 1903 ? Even back then, in the AMCA magazine and the few credible books on the history of motorcycles, no one would commit to a specific number and generally defaulted to the standard algorithm to say one prototype. This was my answer, to which he replied, "WRONG !" "According to this, they made 5 motorcycles in 1903 !" At first you try the polite rebuttle, then you resort to ridicule, then you're reduced to name calling which often leads to violence. I have learned that people (including myself) will believe almost anything they see in print if it comes from a source they respect.

The second stupid discussion was with a drunk couple. I was at a gas station on my '40 Chief and this guy starts to tell me all about the history of H-D and Indian. I stopped him when he said that Indian had bought H-D in 1910 and that everything after that was basically an Indian. When I told him how ridiculous that was his girlfriend went berserk. She went past the rebuttle and ridicule stage to the foul name calling stage. The Indian got the last word because you couldn't even hear them over that beautiful reving flathead.

This post is a light in the darkness because it is seaking the truth, in spite of debunking long established and sometimes cherished assumptions.

In the back of the Creation book there's a chart listing a bunch of old and modern sources giving early Harley production numbers. As you might guess, they are all over the place and differ greatly. Even the "official" sources don't agree with each other.

Good story about those supposed "experts."

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by Earl
The write up in the ebay ad is the first time that someone has claimed that the recreation of the early Harley motors for the strap-tank-project was Factory authorized.

Did anybody catch that?

What does anyone know about such a claim?

Earl,

Is this what you mean?

Factory Recognized, Duplication of Harley-Davidson's Very First Motorcycle...It is my understanding that the Harley-Davidson factory has authorized the manufacturer of these twenty motorcycle engines to research the very few original strap type motorcycles known to exist, including these newly remanufactured ones, to be accounted for, numbered and included in the file so that in the years to come, there will be no question as to when each surviving strap tank motorcycle was made.

Yes, I did notice that. Doesn't seem to be an "Officially Licensed Product," however, but that the replica-bike manufacturer was allowed to "research" the strap-tank jobs in the Factory collection for duplication purposes and that somewhere there's a file on this "project."

Be nice to know the full story, eh?

[HarleyCreation]

Re: Better Pis 1953 & 1959

Originally posted by Harleyson's
Friends,

found two better quality pics from the Antique Bike Room in 1953 and 1959:

1953:

http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/1qq5-1a-jpg.html (*)

1959:

http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/1qq5-1b-jpg.html (*)

Hope to see you guys all in Germany this June

Fritz

www.harleysons.de

Once again our German club members and friends come up with great material!

Viel Dank!

Nice:

[HarleyCreation]

ABANDON ALL HOPE YE WHO ENTER!

Originally posted by silentgreyfellow
Great photos, Fritz!

Notice in the 1953 photo that the 1907 has an exhaust cutout rod / boss but not hooked up (1908 feature?). Interesting that none of the strap tanks have the throttle chains.

In the 1959 photo, the 1904 has now been labled as a 1903/4.

The 1905/6/7 all have ribbed fenders (1908 and later feature according to earlier info in this thread).

The 1906/7 both have fuel fillers in the front like the 1908.

The 1907 has the later Sager cushion fork like 1908.

The 1906 has a seat other than a Persons Champion.

It almost makes one think that these bikes were pieced together a bit.

Your conclusion is correct. The earliest Factory collection bikes were pieced together and probably more than a just a "bit." They seem to be largely "parts bikes" obtained/assembled at a later date. For the "1906" model that might be as late as the 1950s!

The old story that Harley took a bike from every year of production from "Day One" is another myth. In the Creation book we show a want-ad Harley ran in 1919 begging for 1905-1906-1907-1908 models (reproduced below).

That ad PROVES without doubt that Harley acquired these models in or after 1919 and did NOT save original correct early production. From that FACT we can conclude that the oddball mismatched parts on these early 1905-1908 jobs are the result of bits and pieces and old "junk" machines re-assembled and cobbled together after 1919 with little if any effort to restore them correctly.

Therefore, taking these Factory collection bikes as Gospel true representatives of early model years is like entering a Funhouse Hall of Mirrors. Abandon all hope ye who enter! They lead one down the primrose path of deception and total confusion; or, like yourself, one becomes sceptical and begins to question their authenticity. Like Earl said, we should NOT stand in "awe" and blindly accept what we KNOW is not correct, but instead puzzle it out.

That is why in the Creation book we did NOT rely on these collection bikes or later "official" histories to get at the truth. In fact there is a whole chapter called: "Unsolved Mysteries of the Harley-Davidson Motorcycle" telling why we were forced to abandon the "official" version of Harley origin events because the "official" story did NOT make sense when put to the "smell" test (as Ed Youngblood described it.) Just like viewing these Collection bikes as Gospel puts one on a merry-go-round until you get dizzy trying to make sense of them because they don't make sense since they are NOT ORIGINAL PRODUCTION but cobbed together "old junk."

That is why we went back literally to the CREATION of Harley-Davidson and looked only at original documents, photos, etc. to establish the events and MODELS as they actually occurred at the time and did not rely on later lying ad-men & misinformed hack writers or parts bikes tossed together for "good enuf" display purposes and nothing more.



1919 ad from:
Bicycling World and Motorcycle Review

[23JDCA 808]

1903 Harley. This picture is from the July&August 2003 AARP magazine. It was a fluff piece by Elinor Nauen, and had nothing to do with really old Harleys. http://www.97330.com/1903_Harley.html
...bill (ps. why do my comments to this site take forever to load and are unsucessful half of the time?)