Otis Chandler "1907" Harley in Fall Issue

[c.o.]

O.K. that's not the right one.......this picture posting is a little difficult for the non-computer savvy!!!!! I'll get it here eventually........ But I guess this one shows rounded edges....

[Earl]

Something a little further on the fenders of the Chandler auction bike. Yesterday, I spoke with a couple people in California. They had the fenders from that bike in their shop years ago, and used those fenders to make copies. They told me that those fenders were the same all the way up to 1912. I asked them what was the width of those fenders.

They told me the width of those fenders on the Calidonna/Chandler motorcycle was 3-3/4 inches wide.

Fenders that were 3-3/4 inches wide were introduced for the Harley Davidson 1908 model year.

[c.o.]

let's try this again.........

[Earl]

Originally posted by LouieMCman
So, looking at the pictures from the auction do you think the bike is a 1908 ???

Let's summarize the features of the Calidonna/Chandler machine:

Fuel tank does not have the fuel filler on the side like a 1907, it has the fuel filler in the front, which was a new 1908 model feature.

Fuel tank has bottom edges that are rounded, as shown in "Early Riders" Number One, Fall 1994. This was a new 1908 model feature.

Muffler has a cut-out operated by a lever, which was a new 1908 model feature.

The forks do not appear to be the original version of the Sager spring fork as applied to the Harley-Davidson motorcycle, as shown in the 1907 catalog, or in the 1907 photo that HarleyCreation posted. They appear to be a more heavy duty fork, which was a new 1908 model feature.

The fenders are not 3 inches in width, like 1907 models, but have been measured to be 3-3/4 inches in width, which was a new 1908 model feature, of new design.

In my opinion, the Calidonna/Chandler motorcycle exhibits 1908 model features, and does not exhibit 1907 model features.

Therefore, this motorcycle, Serial # 2042, should be called a 1908 model Harley Davidson motorcycle.

Comments??

[HarleyCreation]

Re: 1907 Harley-Davidson Photo

Originally posted by HarleyCreation


There are other 1907 features that are harder to make out from these old images: tank size, more "rounded" (SQUARE!) tanks...

Oops!

I can't edit that post anymore but I mistyped it.

Of course it is the 1908 that has rounded bottom tank edges and the 1907 was more square as posted previously.

"Cycle & Automobile Trade Journal" 1 Feb 1908, p.160: "The tanks now used are rounded..."

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by c.o.
Here goes fellas................
Attachment: walter.jpg

Thanks c.o.!

That photo of Walter is well-known and taken around the time in 1908 that he won the Diamond Medal 1000+5 endurance run contest in New York state that was H-D's first big claim to fame.

Without doubt a 1908 model.

On it you can clearly see the cut-out lever and rod running straight down from the rear tank strap.

That's a 1908 feature not seen in the "07.walt.core.jpg" photo previously posted, but a feature present on the Chandler Auction bike.

Also, you can see the "stepped" 1908 fenders on the endurance win bike you posted and how far forward the fender extends in front. Same style and length of 1908 fender that the Chandler Auction bike is wearing, but different from the fender seen on the bike in the "07.walt.core.jpg" photo previously posted.

So far we have seen written documentation of 1908 updates and have seen period photos from 1907 and 1908 showing bikes from those two model years.

Clearly visible features like the cut-out and fenders in the 1908 bike photo more closely resemble features found on the Chandler Auction bike. Features different or lacking in the 1907 photo.

I'll bet if we could examine the Chandler Auction bike in person we could easily determine that it has several more 1908 features difficult or impossible to make out from photos alone such as heavier fork, tank size, tank shape, etc.

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by Earl
Something a little further on the fenders of the Chandler auction bike. Yesterday, I spoke with a couple people in California. They had the fenders from that bike in their shop years ago, and used those fenders to make copies. They told me that those fenders were the same all the way up to 1912. I asked them what was the width of those fenders.

They told me the width of those fenders on the Calidonna/Chandler motorcycle was 3-3/4 inches wide.

Fenders that were 3-3/4 inches wide were introduced for the Harley Davidson 1908 model year.

Very interesting!

Just to verify once again, I dug out my copy of the 1907 H-D brochure "The Harley-Davidson Motorcycle" printed by "Wright & Joy, Co., Milwaukee."

On Page 8 under "Guards" it clearly states: "Both front and rear guards are three inches wide..."

If the Chandler Auction bike has 3-3/4" wide fenders then it does NOT have 1907 fenders but has 1908 fenders.

I have yet to see anything on that bike to make it a "1907" model as claimed, but several things that make it a 1908 model Harley-Davidson.

Hmmmm.......

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by Earl


Let's summarize the features of the Calidonna/Chandler machine:

Fuel tank does not have the fuel filler on the side like a 1907, it has the fuel filler in the front, which was a new 1908 model feature.

Fuel tank has bottom edges that are rounded, as shown in "Early Riders" Number One, Fall 1994. This was a new 1908 model feature.

Muffler has a cut-out operated by a lever, which was a new 1908 model feature.

The forks do not appear to be the original version of the Sager spring fork as applied to the Harley-Davidson motorcycle, as shown in the 1907 catalog, or in the 1907 photo that HarleyCreation posted. They appear to be a more heavy duty fork, which was a new 1908 model feature.

The fenders are not 3 inches in width, like 1907 models, but have been measured to be 3-3/4 inches in width, which was a new 1908 model feature, of new design.

In my opinion, the Calidonna/Chandler motorcycle exhibits 1908 model features, and does not exhibit 1907 model features.

Therefore, this motorcycle, Serial # 2042, should be called a 1908 model Harley Davidson motorcycle.

Comments??

I'd say that's a fair summary, Earl, from my point of view.

Not so fair, perhaps, to guys bidding on that bike who think it is one thing when it appears to be something else.

Afterall, there were THREE times the number of 1908s vs. 1907s built (450 vs. 150) according to "official" H-D numbers.

It's also good to know that we can take the 1908 serial number divide down to at least the 2042 level.

That's awfully close to the "2000" mark and it makes a guy wonder if "2000" isn't the 1907-1908 dividing line.

I have heard there are a "couple" of original H-D motors numbered in the 18xx range. Not complete bikes mind you, just motors.

[LouieMCman]

Again, I am by no means an expert on early Harleys, but if all the evidence in this thread is true.......well I for one will come right out and say it ..... I think it is a 1908 model!

[Earl]

Re: strappy

Originally posted by jurassic
the engine number is 2037.this is really an amazing bike.they say the air in the tires is 80 years old.and i believe it.its perfect,not only the nicest original paint strap tank ever, but i think its the nicest original paint harley ever.i was lucky enough to have this bike in my shop for a few months while restoring a 1908.the pinstriping,the nickel,the shape of the lettering,all different than the later models.heres another pic,it hard to see much with the size limitations.

Hi Jurassic,

Could you measure the width of the fenders for us on Serial # 2037, the Bongers/Nebraska machine.

Thanks

[Smarty]

So if this bike is actually a 1908 not a 1907 what position does that put the AMCA in ? because it is now knowingly co-operating (by allowing the advertisement within its official magazine) in the mis-representation of this particular machine.

Perhaps that was the auction house's intent...to advertise within a recognised and respected publication to give credence to the bike ?

Should the AMCA publish a statement within the next magazine ? or just be more wary in future with the advertisements it carries ?
or have I failed to read some obscure small print at the front of the magazine that exonerates the AMCA from any mis-representation however caused within its publications ?

[HarleyCreation]

Again this shows me how poorly we understood the early model Harley-Davidsons. Until a few years ago we all thought there was a 1903 model and a 1904 model Harley when in fact production did not begin until 1905.

So it's little wonder mistakes also have been made properly identifying the 1907 and 1908 models. Probably honest mistakes, but mistakes never-the-less.

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by LouieMCman
Again, I am by no means an expert on early Harleys, but if all the evidence in this thread is true.......well I for one will come right out and say it ..... I think it is a 1908 model!

I tend to agree with you.

[c.o.]

I'm thinking that it's unanimous

This has been a great thread. I'm going to have to pick up a copy of At The Creation. Herb, I'm really interested in what you have to say on this whole topic.

[jurassic]

strap history

this thread is definatly worthy.i do believe we have made much progress in identifing some of these early harleys.this info is obviously important ,as it appears we may be discussing possibly the worlds most expensive motorcycle.although the one year difference may not change much,in terms of value.thanks to mister wagner and his research we are able to evaluate some of the facts.i do believe his book ,or a follow up ,would be made much better with a study of the motorcycles that are still in existence.as i have learned ,close study of a real machine is the best reference.as far as i can tell only 5 six bolt engines exist today.the six bolt being the earliest of the harley line.these engines did not have serial numbers.does anyone have photos of the six bolt engine that harley recently acquired??i have documented the other 4. as for # 2037 is appears that it is probably a 1908.the fenders are 3 3/4 inches wide,the bottom of the tank is rounded,and the fork is of the later sager style.the photos of the 1908 restored bike that paul posted is an original engine with a reproduction chassis.it is number 2113.and the carb is numbered 2022.also,this is just my opinion,but no factory ever made all their changes on january 1st,and i'm not sure that factories back then actually advertised new models in september ,as they do today.especially with a fledgling company like harley , whose production was so limited.most changes were made from bike to bike,as we can see in later year models.i am going to call JP's museum tomorrow and try to get the serial number of his original 1908.so herb are you ready for a road trip,or a second book.