Camel Back

[Chris Haynes]

well then......... can we get the senior judges ruling on the validity of the indian in question?

Sure. All you need to do is find a Senior Judge that knows something about Indians.

[exeric]

What do you think the last photo in this grouping is of ? Would this be a paint booth or drying room ? I would assume that in those days, parts were dipped. I notice one fork part looks dark and the rest look raw, as do the fenders. What do you think Jurassic?

[fillibuster]

hawg
Andy Anderson called his bike a 1903, it was just a collection of parts the frame might have been an 03 but the motor was at least an 05.
I have no idea what happened to his bike

I recall Cleon Graber bringing his 04 to Farmington (or davenport), and "lamenting" the presence of "Andy Anderson's 02" !!! I'm fairly certain it was labelled 02, but that matters less if, as you say, it was a collection of parts.
re Cleon's bike (less than 80 miles from me!), have we had a good look at it in the last 10 years? How authentic is it?

[kval]

I recall Cleon Graber bringing his 04 to Farmington (or davenport), and "lamenting" the presence of "Andy Anderson's 02" !!! I'm fairly certain it was labelled 02, but that matters less if, as you say, it was a collection of parts.
re Cleon's bike (less than 80 miles from me!), have we had a good look at it in the last 10 years? How authentic is it?

Phil
I just checked the records from 1992 on, at some meets Andy called it an 02 then at others he called it an 03. after that he brought out a 1903 Warwick nobody really cared, it was just good to see Andy

[c.o.]

I believe in the movie "Glory Days" that Andy mentioned it was an '02 or '03.... He seemed like quite a character!!! I wish I could have had a chance to have a "b.s." session with him.

[fillibuster]

I spent some time this past weekend reading my main bible on the Indians, Sucher's Iron Redskin, and tried to follow with a little of Hatfield's writings. ... then I left the books home before heading to the job site! drat!

I recall Sucher writing that Hedstrom built about "5 or 6" more bikes after his first in 01, which he demonstrated in May of 01. It was also suggested by George Yarocki (in spring 09 issue) that a "Emil Hafelffinger" source would have been possible for his 01 engines. Any info on that guy? What did his parts look like? .. It seems that Aurora may have been casting engine parts as early as late fall of 01, but it seems more likely that Hedstrom's original source for castings was somebody like Hafelffinger.

I can't rule out the possibility that Aurora could have cast the cyls and cases for a late 01 build, with the vertical exhaust and 3-stud cyls and webbed stud bosses. But the beautiful Chandler bike had later retro fits, including the twist-grip spark control (nobody has mentioned that), and the larger tank (an 04 change, I think) than shown on the sales literature of the 01. I haven't squinted hard enough to notice the carb and pedal diffs yet. The 3-blade fork is obvious enough. ...... what it all points to is that Herb is probably on point in arguing that the Chandler bike is (was) over-rated, being a less-than-accurate example of the earliest known Indian, regardless of how pretty it is. .. dam harley camp is always lookin' to spoil things for the Indians!!

One last question: Do the 01 "photos" look manufactured? the ones with the small tank, I mean. Sales catalogs from that era aren't that reliable, are they?

[jurassic]

everybody really needs to buy steves book.

[jurassic]

tommos pic

this is almost certainly a royal {hafelfinger}. look close at the pedal crank area ,and the exhaust,and the carb intake,and the timer,and the tank ,and the framework around the engine.

[stan]

It would be very intersting to know the history of this Indian, and the family. It looks like it hasen't run for some time. Plants are grwoing through the rear wheel spokes. Stan

[HarleyCreation]

this is almost certainly a royal {hafelfinger}. look close at the pedal crank area ,and the exhaust,and the carb intake,and the timer,and the tank ,and the framework around the engine.

Now that you point it out I sure see it. Goes to show how untrustworthy even this older stuff can be. This article dates from 1916. Already they were mixing up their brands and dates.

As to the 1901 Indian design, there was an earlier French motorcycle from 1899 that had very similar features. Somewhere I have that from an original 1899 source.

My hunch is that most of our early American designs were actually inspired by French motorcycles: Orient, Thomas, Mitchell, etc..

The French were clearly world leaders in motorcycle design c1896-1900. The Brits were way behind. We weren't much better. And if the Hildebrand & Wolfmueller is any indication, the Germans didn't have a clue either.

In America Pennington had the proper (light-nimble-fast-and-handsome) concept dead-on as early as 1892-'93, but his motor was no good. It took the French de Dion-Bouton engine of 1895 to turn things around. That's why progress was more rapid in France.

This is a good story but very poorly known or understood.

[23JDCA 808]

everybody really needs to buy steves book.

Emil Hafelfinger's patent:
http://www.google.com/patents/about?...dq=Hafelfinger

[c.o.]

Here are some great ads courtesy of Tommo!!!

[Tommo]

Thanks for that Cory.
Guys, Firstly I'm not really an Indian man but I do own what I think is a 1904 Camel back. More about that machine at a later date.
If you compare the two Indian ads which appeared a week apart (19th and 25th) in November 1902 there are several obvious differences that are visible to my untrained Indian eye.
25th Larger fuel tank
Exhaust curves down in the early ad but appears to be straight down a week later.
There looks like there are subtle changes to the coil box and the fork looks different and stronger in the later ad.
I'm here to learn as my Indian knowledge is VERY LIMITED.
Any comments are very welcome.
By the way the engine number of my camel back is 915

[jurassic]

hi tommo ,thanks for the great ads. very informative. the nov. 19th ad looks like the same picture as the one they were using in early 1902, which was probably a picture of the 1901 model {prototype?}. it wasn't even really a picture it was a line drawing.they're advertising department must not have been up to speed. yet ,the nov. 25th picture looks to be an actual picture and not a line drawing. the bike in that ad is a three bolt engine,with the exhaust aiming downwards. it seems to me that the bike in the 1901 prototype line drawings is really the only evidence we have seen of the exhaust coming straight out of the head. they might have never even produced such an engine. or this could have been the first engine hedstrom produced. i think its logical to speculate that when aurora took over production of the engines all these major changes were made.

[jurassic]

early as found camel back

this bike use to belong to bill meade who lived just a few blocks from my grandma's house in mount lake terrace ,washington. possibly a 1905 .