Camel Back

[HarleyCreation]

That "1901" Indian Image!

I don't consider the "1901" Indian image (also used in 1902 catalog below) to be a line drawing exactly, but more a photograph that has been modified by the publishing process and possibly retouched. I'm not sure if it's a "half-tone" or what, but catalog images were often different looking (Harley too) from the actual photo from which they were derived. That's what the "1901" Indian image looks like to me.

Without other evidence we don't know if this image is the first Indian, or if the first Indian was a cruder prototype. This bike looks pretty finished to me. Possibly it was a second version and more of a 1902 mockup that wasn't exactly like production bikes. But I feel it was something they did actually build even if NOT the very first bike. We find something very similar in first images of Harley-Davidson motorcycles where the earliest known image is a rather crude, actual line drawing. By comparison this "1901" Indian image is pretty darn good.

Question: When did this "1901" Indian image first appear in pring? I can document it to the December 1, 1901, issue of Cycle and Automobile Trade Journal. But did it appear any earlier in print than that? If so, how much earlier? That would tell us a lot as the first Indian prototype appeared in May of 1901, if I'm not mistaken. There are several months between May and December of 1901 to mock up a second model and take a photo of it.

[HarleyCreation]

June 2, 1901 photo/image?

Here's something interesting.

Jerry Hatfield in his Indian photo book says there was a right-side photo of the Indian motorcycle in the June 2, 1901 issue of the Springfield Sunday Republican newspaper.

That is very early!

However, in the book he shows a different image; the same one we are calling a 1901 Indian and that also appeared in the 1902 catalog.

Question: Was the image in the June 2, 1901 Springfield newspaper article EXACTLY the same bike as the late 1901 & 1902 catalog image? If it was exactly the same, then the image posted and reposted here must be the first Indian.

Or does it differ in some way and shows an earlier variation instead?

Seeing the bike pictured in the June 2, 1901, issue of the Springfield Sunday Republican would pretty much answer the question of what the first Indian motorcycle must have looked like.

[c.o.]

Here's the first mention of a Hendee/Hedstrom machine in England from the Nov 26th, 1902 issue of MotorCycling. Courtesty of Tommo....

[HarleyCreation]

Here's the first mention of a Hendee/Hedstrom machine in England from the Nov 26th, 1902 issue of MotorCycling. Courtesty of Tommo....

Hmmmm.....I wonder if the report of an Indian going to England for the 1901 Stanley show was actually for the 1902 show.

[c.o.]

I find 1902 more reasonable... I just don't buy 1901... but then again that's just my speculation........

[Chris Haynes]

Even H-D once claimed to have started in 1901.

[HarleyCreation]

Cory,

I'm leaning that way too. I'd like to see that supposed 1901 Indian in England clipping. You can't be too careful in this game.

Chris,

Yes, and Indian once claimed to have started building bikes in 1900. Hendee even said he met a guy riding a 1900 model Indian and even gave the serial number of the machine. Fancy that.

All great liars....

[micmac]

Great thread. This is why I keep paying my dues, stuff like this.

[Tommo]

I've searched my later issues of Motor Cycling but can find no further comprehensive article on the Indian that is hinted at in the posted 1902 item.
I can only suppose that it appeared in an issue that is missing from my collection.

[HarleyCreation]

Autocar mag, Nov. 30, 1901

I looked up the 1901 "Indian-in-England" reference again. It was cited on p.41 of the Summer 2000 issue of The Antique Motorcycle.

Supposedly a Hendee motorcycle (Indian) was on display at "Stand 31a" at an English auto/cycle show, the original info in "The Autocar," Nov. 30, 1901 issue.

If anyone in the world reading this has access to The Autocar for 1901, could you please look up the Nov. 30, 1901 issue and tell us what it says about Indian in England?

[Tommo]

Somewhere on the forum I promised Kevin Valintine the story of my 1904 Camal back so here goes.
The story starts in Australia with a husband and wife named Laurie and Mary Staig and their company named "Staig Enterprises"
Laurie and Mary were what we call "Side show" people, Americans would probably call them "Fair ground" people and they ran a series of Amusement Park attractions and travelled around Australia.
Sometime in the mid to late 1920's they decided to up stumps and come to New Zealand and in doing so they sold off most of their attractions but decided to bring the one they felt would earn them the most revenue along with them.
All their belongings, the attraction and the 1904 Indian were packed up and shipped to NZ resulting in what is reputed to be the very first "Wall of Death" arriving in NZ.
They travelled the country with the Wall and the little Indian and a couple of Scouts amusing thousands of Kiwi's.
Just prior to World War 2 Laurie passed away but Mary carried on doing the only thing she knew, entertaing people, but when the war broke out she decided she wanted to go back to Australia so she sold the Wall to the Mahon family.
The Mahon family based in Ngaruawahia are the royalty of the amusement game in NZ and to this day they own about 75% of all the fairground rides and amusements here in N.Z.
For whatever reason the Mahon's sold the Indian Scouts and replaced them with Francis-Barnett two strokes and went on the road with the pop pop of a two stroke instead of the bark of an Indian Scout and back in Ngaruawahia the little Camel back was pushed into a back shed and fogotten.
After the war along comes Les Moore the father of the speedway legend Ronnie Moore and he purchases the Wall off Mahon's and starts doing the side show circuit with his pre-teenage son becomming one of the stars of the show at a very young age.
Les Moore is then killed racing a car on the beach at Nelson and as Ronnie is by now a superstar of speedway in Great Britian the Moore family decides to sell the attraction.
Enter Fred Pickup of Hamilton and his son Graham, Fred puts up the money and Graham is going to do the riding along with a couple of other people but they all need some tuition so who better to do it than the man himself Ronnie Moore.
This leads to a partnership that lasted for many years as Ronnie was quite happy to ride the Wall back here in NZ during the speedway off season, he just didn't want all the hassle of organising everything so Graham and Fred did the organising and Ronnie and Graham the riding and the paying public marvelled at their ability.
But back to the 1904 Indian, Fred Pickup had an engineering business in Hamilton and Mahon's just a few miles away in Ngaruawahia often got him to do work for them. One day one of the Mahon's arrived at Fred's business and wheels in the 04 Indians saying this is yours, it goes with the Wall, Les Moore must have forgotten to collect it and as you own the wall, you own the bike.
It is doubtful that the 04 was ever used on the Wall after Laurie Staig died but Fred got it up and running and rode it in many parades and from time to time it hung on the side of the Wall as an added attraction.
Dad and Fred were good mates and one day Fred said to Dad this bike would be better off in your shed, more people will get to see it than they do here, take it home with you and I know where it is if I want it back.
Time goes by and both Fred and Graham pass on and one day a chap visiting us tells Dad "oh according to so and so that's the bike you stole from Fred Pickup".
Now that comment stirred up a real hornets nest and as both Dad and I weren't one for doing things over the telephone we loaded the Indian into the back of my car and set off to see Fred's widow in Hamilton.
Without going into too much detail it appeared a certain gentleman thought he had more right to the bike than us and in an effort to acquire it he started a rumour that we had stolen it and had no right to it what-so-ever.
Mrs Pickup was so upset and when she found out what was going on she made sure she put a stop to it and said that Fred would have been so upset as he really wanted us to have it.
Now that's the story of my Camelback Indian and yes it's far from original, it shows it's scars from years on the Wall of Death and I just can't bring myself to restore it and rub out all the evidence of it's years of bringing enjoyment to all those that watched it on the Wall.
I've been a long time typing this so I'll attach photos on a seperate reply.
Sorry fellas if I've bored you and yes it does run and no it's not for sale.

[Chris Haynes]

Sorry fellas if I've bored you and yes it does run and no it's not for sale.

Tommo,
Feel free to bore me with things like that anytime.

[Tommo]

Hell you're quick Chris
Here's 3 photos of the bike.
I tried to let you see the frame repairs but they don't show up too well.
You'll note there's no oil tank. The gyroscopic action of riding the Wall wouldn't allow the oil to gravity feed so all they did was put a cork in the crankcase that they removed and with an oilcan injected enough oil for each session on the Wall.
Too much oil and you oiled a plug and down you came or too little oil and it seized with the same result.

[redfred84]

I spent a lot of time in the UK, actually living IN the Indian shop of Allan Forbes. The late Bernard Thomas was the local mover & shaker of the early stuff there. Allan secured one of his bikes after his ill-timed death, and it was supposedly the very first Indian inported to Britain. Billy Hendee Wells, the son of the first English Indian dealer was there for celebration of the bike during the 1995 International Indian Rally, hosted in Scotland (with a record 362 Indians in attendance from all over the globe).
I got the bike back running for the occasion, and had frequent conversations with Billy Wells Jr. Of course, earlier bikes could have been privately shipped over before the official dealership network, but this '08 or '09 single was considered the oldest Indian in the UK at the time.
Here, in SF, our SFMC historian is hard at work digging up info on C.C. Hopkins, who was bicycling buddys with Hedstrom & Hendee, and later became the Western Distributor for Indian. By Western, I mean West of the Mississippi. We have his original, family scrap book, which covers his biking carreer before the turn of the century. C.C. Hopkins started our SFMC in '04, and we have all our yard-longs, and even some 5' longs, plus all our felt pennants, and archives from the early days. I'll see what our Librarian can dig up on this.
'till then, RF.

[Tom Lovejoy]

Very cool Tommo, I always find the history of the machines and how they managed to survive fascinating. Thanks for sharing.