Hard ti Kick Panhead

[dukekleman]

Bill,

Those answers help me out with some thoughts I had and have.
Is there any chance you measured the run out of the main drive gear, at the bearing surface for the needle bearings, while rotating it over the transmissions mainshaft, after the new bushing was installed and sized?

I ask because I have seen many that have unacceptable run out afterwards. 0.004" is not uncommon but unacceptable. When this runout issue is coupled with proper needle bearing clearance it causes great misalignment and binding 10" out on the opposite side where the kick-starting gears take action.
This is aggravated by resistance added from the engine under compression. Also the binding of the rubber seal in the kicker arm bushings can contribute to more resistance as well.

I'm also wondering how you install your hydraulic lifters. Many people install them so that the lifter is some what "Dry" of oil and soft/spongy. This causes less effective camshaft duration which causes hard kicking.
If they haven't all pumped up properly and/or bleeding down, kick starting will be very hard.
This is especially true for the two Exhaust lifters. They are typically the most problematic with Valve train angle. Exhaust lifters that do not pump up and move the pushrod/valve through its designed Camshaft timing have a far greater affect on increasing cylinder pressure than the intake lifters.
Dynamic compression is based on a few factors, RPM being one of them.
So the cylinder pressure you are measuring with your gauge kit coupled with the difficult slow kicking motion would also make sense.

Hope this helps get to the bottom of the issue or issues,

Duke Kleman

[billpedalino]

Bill,

Those answers help me out with some thoughts I had and have.
Is there any chance you measured the run out of the main drive gear, at the bearing surface for the needle bearings, while rotating it over the transmissions mainshaft, after the new bushing was installed and sized?

I ask because I have seen many that have unacceptable run out afterwards. 0.004" is not uncommon but unacceptable. When this runout issue is coupled with proper needle bearing clearance it causes great misalignment and binding 10" out on the opposite side where the kick-starting gears take action.
This is aggravated by resistance added from the engine under compression. Also the binding of the rubber seal in the kicker arm bushings can contribute to more resistance as well.

I'm also wondering how you install your hydraulic lifters. Many people install them so that the lifter is some what "Dry" of oil and soft/spongy. This causes less effective camshaft duration which causes hard kicking.
If they haven't all pumped up properly and/or bleeding down, kick starting will be very hard.
This is especially true for the two Exhaust lifters. They are typically the most problematic with Valve train angle. Exhaust lifters that do not pump up and move the pushrod/valve through its designed Camshaft timing have a far greater affect on increasing cylinder pressure than the intake lifters.
Dynamic compression is based on a few factors, RPM being one of them.
So the cylinder pressure you are measuring with your gauge kit coupled with the difficult slow kicking motion would also make sense.

Hope this helps get to the bottom of the issue or issues,

Duke Kleman

Duke,
Your suggestions are definitely worthy of consideration. I've also communicated with Carl Olsen (whose opinion I also greatly respect) and he suggested examining the kicker/transmission train as well. Given that the primary side must be disassembled if I end up (worst case) removing and disassembling the motor, your suggested observations are just another step along the way. At that time, an end play check of the main drive with the sprocket installed would be an easy measurement. I also plan to remove the kicker cover and check for signs of kicker gear misalignment.

As for the lifters, I've always bled them dry before installing, and use the 4-turns out adjustment at the tappet's lowest position. There is no binding of the lifter train. I know this because the last time I worked on this problem I installed a spare set of heads without the pan covers, and fully rotated the motor checking the valve system movement. Also, this time, with the running heads installed, I raised each pushrod to it's highest point and using a prybar, observed additional movement with the valve fully open. Also, with the spark plugs removed, I can turn the motor over fairly easily by hand from the kicker pedal. So, it seems appears that any increased resistance from the lifters and tappets isn't significant enough to cause what I'm experiencing.

I work away from home during the week and my schedule will allow some panhead time in the next couple of weeks, so I'll keep you posted as to my findings.
Thank you (and Carl) so much for giving this problem such careful consideration. It's quite a head-scratcher for me...

Best Regards,
Bill Pedalino

[dukekleman]

Bill,

Sometimes I wish a short video clip could be attached.I believe it might be helpful?
I look forward to the discovery and resolution.

Duke

[billpedalino]

I finally found the time to start looking at the problem in depth and I decided to start with the primary chain alignment. I removed the inner primary cover and, using a string line I found the motor sprocket to be slightly out of line with the clutch drum sprocket (see attached photos). While I know this certainly isn't right, it would seem that there would be enough play in the primary chain to absorb at least some of this misalignment - but I bet I'd go through primary chains quite quickly! However, never having to deal with this type of situation before, my question to you all is; Do you think that this level of misalignment would cause the extremely hard kicking force that I'm experiencing? I'm skeptical.

I had SUBSTANTIAL repairs done to the frame, especially in the area where the seat post tube joins the frame's lower cross member, so (in hindsight) while it disappoints me, it doesn't surprise me if this ends up being the problem.

My next step is to remove the transmission and install a partial transmission that I assembled from stock containing only the kick start circuit. I'll then kick the bike through with no primary covers and possibly observe what may be going array during the kicking process.

Your thoughts??

[dukekleman]

Bill,

It's hard to say that this misalignment is causing all the kicking issues. With that said, that is very severe misalignment shown in the photos.
The maximum allowed , while to much, is 0.030". The photo images appear as though there is all of 0.250" or more of misalignment on your primary drive system.
This will cause hard kicking but I'm also a little skeptical as it being the entire issue you are experiencing.

You mentioned frame repair. Did you happen to check crankcase to frame fitment?
If so, was it checked with the engine fully assembled or with bare crank cases?

Duke Kleman

[billpedalino]

Bill,

It's hard to say that this misalignment is causing all the kicking issues. With that said, that is very severe misalignment shown in the photos.
The maximum allowed , while to much, is 0.030". The photo images appear as though there is all of 0.250" or more of misalignment on your primary drive system.
This will cause hard kicking but I'm also a little skeptical as it being the entire issue you are experiencing.

You mentioned frame repair. Did you happen to check crankcase to frame fitment?
If so, was it checked with the engine fully assembled or with bare crank cases?

Duke Kleman

Duke,
Yes, I share exactly the same opinions as you ; it's an issue, but it it THE issue?? As for the motor fitment in the frame, yes, I did place the bare cases into the frame to see if any shimming beneath the front motor mounts was needed (which was not) and to see of all four motor mount bolts aligned properly (which they did).
At this point, I know that the frame needs to be looked at and further repair/alignment is needed. I don't know if Don (H-D Engineering is still doing this, so I may need to find a good frame guy..

[joe fxs fxr]

I may need to find a good frame guy..

Mike at 47 Industries in New Jersey is your guy. He does amazing work, fixed the twisted neck on my 79 FXS like new and you can't see where.

Frame Repaired 1.jpg

[paddy]

Duke,
Yes, I share exactly the same opinions as you ; it's an issue, but it it THE issue?? As for the motor fitment in the frame, yes, I did place the bare cases into the frame to see if any shimming beneath the front motor mounts was needed (which was not) and to see of all four motor mount bolts aligned properly (which they did).
At this point, I know that the frame needs to be looked at and further repair/alignment is needed. I don't know if Don (H-D Engineering is still doing this, so I may need to find a good frame guy..

Please keep us posted as to a frame guy and alignment

[billpedalino]

Please keep us posted as to a frame guy and alignment

Paddy,
Thanks for the lead. I live on Long Island, but stay in N.J. a couple of nights each week for work, so it's quite convenient. Obviously the frame needs re-working, but first I must be certain that it's part of the hard kick problem. There may also be another contributing factor and I need to know what it is before disassembling the bike. I'll keep you posted.

[dukekleman]

Bill,

With the spark plugs removed, Prior to taking your primary drive system apart, clutch system fully assembled and engaged, could you measure the rolling torque value?

Then measure the rolling torque value again with the primary removed from the engine?

Duke