Rumor and shadows

[Steve Little]

Hi.
I am trying to confirm the little talked about subject of the very late 1936 model EL's coming out in the 1937 style frame.
Anyone who has a general interest in Knuckles would be familiar with the traditional 1936 frame.
The down tubes have 1 1/8" stiffner sleeves over the 1" down tubes from the neck to about half way down and the front bend under the engine mount is a large radius bend and brazed on sidecar loops. The right hole in the seatpost cluster is unmachined.
A couple of friends who are well versed in the subject of Knuckle have said that the last of the 1936 run were assembled in the 37 style frame.
Does anyone have any factory pictures or accurate information of high VIN 1936 bikes in this style frame?

The very early 1937 frames (possibly 1936 transition frames) had no transmission outrigger/ 5th mount,
and instead, had a perch bolt that adjusted down onto the right bottom tube under the trans.
This was the design from the 1936 models.
A well known AMCA member from California had an early 1937 with this style perch bolt arrangement under the Kicker cover. The bike has since found a new home in Europe and is lost to further confirmation.

I am hoping for any information... concise, accurate, or hearsay.
Whether I get it or not is another thing.

There was talk of this style 1936 on another thread that had a picture of a bike that might have been a late 1936. Maybe the riders last name was Sam Arena.

Regards Steve

[Chris Haynes]

There is no picture but this in mentioned in Shop Dope # 146 November 4, 1936. It says all 1937 61, 74, and 80 models, also a few of the latest 1936-61 models have been changed. Note that this bulletin is talking about mounting the transmission at 5 points instead of 4. No mention of the latest 36-61 having a complete '37 style frame, but I think that can be safely assumed. The question is, How many is "a few of the latest"? Remember that the only production figure we have on the '36 EL is from the Presidents Report to The Shareholders. It says "Slightly less than 2,000 were built. How many is "Slightly Less?
It should also be noted that although the '37 frame mounted the transmission at 5 points that the 1936 type case was used until supplies were exhausted. The early 1937's had an adapter mount that bolted to the case and to the new 5th mount on the frame.

[Sargehere]

Blue 36EL #2600 (abt #1600 of the "almost 2000" built) has a full-blown, five-point, 1937 frame identical to the one on my 1937 UL. I inspected it personally down here at Eustis last year. It's unrestored, and ridden all-over, owned by a man from Dallas, Texas, effectively its second-owner, and who confirms that the original owner (an aircraft mechanic who kept it spotless) swore to him that frame was original to that bike when he got it new. And, there are no numbers on the top of the seat post stay or any of that.
There's also a factory document, a frame plan, I think it is, that someone I know here in Florida has, that notes the change-over numbers to he later frame changes, right on the margin. So, you can take it to the bank: late '36s had '37 frames. And I'd take that as any motor number over 2600, and they are known to run up into the 2900's.
Everything else is speculation, but you could almost say that by the time the model-year change-over to 1937s was made, late in the 1936, almost all they had to do on the EL assembly line was change the paint colors. And '37s had color-matched oil tanks.

[Chris Haynes]

Sounds like the story of the '36 EL that Jay Leno had bought from the original owners estate. It was all original and never been monkeyed with. Jay's bike restorer at the time was Mike Parti. Mike let me take a look at it. I discovered that it had a 1941-1944 frame and fork. All this on an original unrestored bike? Questions back to the family brought out the fact that their grandfather had been in a wreck and the bike was repaired at the dealer. Obviously the dealer replaced the frame and fork and nobody knew the difference.
I have seen lots of 1936 EL's. I go over every one I see. I have never seen an original '36 in a '37 frame. I am sure that some of the last few were in them but I have never seen a number over 2700's. The factory states the last few. 400 machines is a lot more than a few.

[Steve Little]

Sarge and Chris thanks for entering the debate.

Chris, you may have seen more 1936 bikes and frames than me, have you ever seen a traditional 1936 frame with the brazed on outrigger/ 5th mount.

Sarge. Thanks for your information
Do you think your friend in Florida would be interested in swaping a copy of his blueprint for a copy of the original frame blue print that I have. My copy is very clean and has a lot of extra information on it and has revisons up through 1938.
I'm hoping for more input from other readers.
Regards Steve

[Chris Haynes]

Sarge and Chris thanks for entering the debate.

Chris, you may have seen more 1936 bikes and frames than me, have you ever seen a traditional 1936 frame with the brazed on outrigger/ 5th mount.

Sarge. Thanks for your information
Do you think your friend in Florida would be interested in swaping a copy of his blueprint for a copy of the original frame blue print that I have. My copy is very clean and has a lot of extra information on it and has revisons up through 1938.
I'm hoping for more input from other readers.
Regards Steve

No, I haven't see a factory job. I have seen a couple home jobs. But the factory says some were made.
Bruce Palmer, who happens to live in Florida, has a factory frame blueprint with lots of changes listed on it. Sadly it doesn't go back to 1936. If memory serves it goes back to '40 or '41.

[Steve Little]

Hi.
Do you know an approximate date "start to finish" of production for 1936 models.

I think there is a picture of all the founders standing around the first 36 off the assembly line.

Regards Steve

[Chris Haynes]

Hi.
Do you know an approximate date "start to finish" of production for 1936 models.

I think there is a picture of all the founders standing around the first 36 off the assembly line.

Regards Steve

Actually that was one of the preproduction machines from December 1935. It is a staged photo. If you will notice all the other bikes on the line are VL's.

[Steve Little]

Yes that was the picture I was thinking of.
I was hoping it would give an indication of the start of production for 1936.
Does anyone know the production dates from start to finish of the 1936 models?

[Chris Haynes]

Yes that was the picture I was thinking of.
I was hoping it would give an indication of the start of production for 1936.
Does anyone know the production dates from start to finish of the 1936 models?

My guess is that production started in late January or early February 1936. The first bikes started arriving at dealers in Late February 1936. The last quarter 1936 presidents report says a dozen or so preproduction bikes were built in December 1935.

[Sargehere]

My guess has always been that the MoCo founders tried to finish up final VL line-production before the factory took the Christmas holiday and shut down for about a week, sending most "bolters-on" home with their families. and everything after Jan first was dedicated to the new EL model. Just an impression.
"Most" of the production line workers might have even gone home and come back to big changes: jigs and bins and machines changed-out by the cadre, by the management and the core of personnel, during the break, in order to get the line reoriented to accommodate the new models as-soon-as-possible in January, 1936. I'm sure they didn't waste any time in setting up the new lines with the all-new set of parts and working out the kinks. That's the way I'd do it, anyway.

[c.o.]

I'm currently reading Herb's book "Harley-Davidson 1930-1941... The time for reading is limited lately and I'm only just getting to late '35/early '36. I'm curious to know if the initial question asked is addressed. A very good book thus far I must say!!!

[Steve Little]

Hi.

Chris... if I can clarify this:
You said in a previous post:
I have seen lots of 1936 EL's. I go over every one I see. I have never seen an original '36 in a '37 frame. I am sure that some of the last few were in them but I have never seen a number over 2700's. The factory states the last few. 400 machines is a lot more than a few.

Do you mean that Harley made an official statement in the shop dopes that the last few were in the later style frame.

And if so, are these the frames that the other shop dope made mention of "fitted with 5th mounting position for trans".

Has anyone else seen a 1936 EL with a higher number than stated here.

[Chris Haynes]

[QUOTE=Steve Little;99142]

Do you mean that Harley made an official statement in the shop dopes that the last few were in the later style frame.
It doesn't say later style frame. It says a few late '36 have the 5 bolt transmission mounting. What frame that was is speculation.

And if so, are these the frames that the other shop dope made mention of "fitted with 5th mounting position for trans".
Yes.

Has anyone else seen a 1936 EL with a higher number than stated here.
One in the 2900's was reported to Gerry when he had the '36 Registry. But it wasn't seen.

[Steve Little]

I was hoping for a wider information pool than just 4 of us contributing.... as knowledgable as it has been.

Either the 4 of us are logging on a 100 times a day to see what the other person has written, or there are a lot of people peeping over the edge of the thread to see what the hypothetical outcome will be. 665 views.

If you have a 36 or know of one....even if it is not 100% correct....have a say. A VIN number minus the last numeral "for your security" and the frame style would be helpful in the debate.

I took some pictures of a red 1936 at Davenport that was in the later "37 style" frame. It had a red dice on the gear knob and the front fender, front rim, and springer had new paint on them but the rest of the paint scheme, looked original. It also had a windscreen fitted.
I remember looking at the VIN but forgot to take a picture of it for future reference.

Steve