Rumor and shadows

[HarleyCreation]

THE THREE 36's I SOLD AREN'T ON THE LIST YET. BUT I'LL LEAVE THAT TO THE NEW OWNERS TO ADD.

REGARDS DAVE

Can you at least tell us if any of them are numbered above #2750?

[HarleyCreation]

High Numbers

The factory photo of 37 EL1000 shows it in the 1937 style frame.

That's good to know.

I wish now I had known to look up original owners of HIGH number 36ELs some 20 years ago when I did my Knucklehead research. At that time low numbers seemed important and not high numbers. That was wrong. Those guys would have to be 90 plus years old now to be alive today.

[HarleyCreation]

#2645 or #2711?

What we don’t know is what Vin numbers we should consider as being late 36 production. Assuming that the Wisconsin registration year was January to end December Herbert’s research would appear to back the theory that 36 production ended at around Vin number 2700.Herb suggested that the Vins on the list above 2700 could be spurious? He is correct in that at least one of the posted numbers.”2749”is the Museum bike it has been built from parts and has the wrong style of font used for some of its numbers. If this bike is removed from the list that only leaves 3 Vins 2769/2838/2903 to cover a block of nearly 200 numbers over 2711. I would love to see good photos of the numbers on the list over 2711.

Pete Reeves. 860.

You cut "good" numbers off before at #2645, but now at #2711. How come? I thought you said before that #2645 was the actual highest 36EL you'd seen. Now you set it higher at #2711. Can you explain why? What am I missing? #2711 is a number on the 36EL Registry. Do you have reason to believe that's a good number?

Interesting about "36EL2749" having some wrong font. I need to learn more about correct font styles. That's key to this occult Harley numerology stuff.

I'm digging deeper and found some important data in the 1937 & '41 regs that I'm sure is good. Now gotta pull it together....

[Chris Haynes]

Herb,
The most obvious thing wrong with 2749 is that it the extreme early '36 E case with the pencil sized timing plug and no ribs by the number boss.

[HarleyCreation]

Herb,
The most obvious thing wrong with 2749 is that it the extreme early '36 E case with the pencil sized timing plug and no ribs by the number boss.

Okay.

What about the motor number itself? Do you agree with Pete that "36EL2749" font looks fishy?

[pete reeves]

Herb.
Apart from the fact that this is an early style case with a late number, The first thing to observe with Vin number 36EL2749 is the large gap between the L and the 2 it is unusual to have such a large gap on a Harley Vin Number.
The stamps used for this number could be Harley number stamps but they are from a different period. The font on numbers 3 & 2 plus the letter L were not used on 1936 models
The #3 should have a serif on the top; the #2 should look slightly distorted and have what I would describe as a small top. The letter L should only have a serif at the top left plus the bottom serif should appear to be slightly triangular.

#2645or #2711?
Sorry for the confusion, in trying to prove my point that there appears to be a lot of missing Vin numbers if 36 production went to # 2903 or above, I was using unscientific logic. Your research has given us a new highest recorded number 2673, Matt’s list appears to give an average spacing between numbers of around 20 so my logic was that #2694 and #2711 followed the pattern from your new highest number, but the gap s between #2711 & #2769 & #2838 & #2903 did not.

Pete Reeves. 860.

[Matt McManus]

I think this is very interesting. I think we need to see some pictures of high 36 VIN's. I guess 36 VIN's will be the new thing that I take pictures of at the meets. I wonder what the belly numbers are on the museum bike. I believe Dale Walksler also has a 36 with a 24xx VIN that has small timing plug cases. I wonder how some of the later VIN bikes ended up with earlier cases??

[Sargehere]

Here is the only 36EL number I can speak for:



Its line bore number is 1565. Last year for the "long diagonal 3," trailing serif at the top of the "L," and the curved-back 6 and 9.
Number 2700 (good number) is on a daily runner owned by a man in Houston, Texas. He bought it from the original owner, an aircraft mechanic, who swore its fully-1937 frame is the one it came from the dealership wearing; never retrofitted.

[T. Cotten]

I think this is very interesting. I think we need to see some pictures of high 36 VIN's.

Matt!

Here's a start, although the study best shows the font change *somewhere* in the '37 production.

....Cotten

[Steve Little]

Hi all.
I have since been informed that the 1936 that I wrote about earlier, (frame changed to traditional 1936) was owned by a guy who used to live in Londaon Ontario Canada.
It turns out that the bike was not judged at a meeting but was looked by a judge. The judge gave his personal veiw "that all 1936 models should be in the traditional 1936 frame" and the owner lost confidence in the bike and changed the frame. I am not firing shots at the judge for giving the best advice as he knew it at the time.
My reason for even mentioning this original owners location is, that if we can track him down, or the new owner of the bike as the bike has since been sold, we can get the VIN and at least have a start of VIN's in this range of extremely rare 1936 models.

This incindent, happened years ago and I guess the knowledge we are trying to clear up now will prevent this type of thing happening.

All those people that are chopping up 37 style frames to try and assimilate/convert a 37 frame to make the traditional 1936 frame had better hold off on the cutting grinder a little longer.

This original Blueprint that I have was first drawn on 10th of July 1936 and it is the new style 1936 frame which we know as the traditional 1937 frame.
That date shows that the drawing was done quite early in the 1936 production.
Also - The trans support braket bracket part serial number YE-751 and the drawing number for this outrigger/support part is 1640-36.
Note that this part was drawn in 1936 and has a 1936 drawing number.
Regards Steve

[HarleyCreation]

All those people that are chopping up 37 style frames to try and assimilate/convert a 37 frame to make the traditional 1936 frame had better hold off on the cutting grinder a little longer.

I would agree with that.

This original Blueprint that I have was first drawn on 10th of July 1936 and it is the new style 1936 frame which we know as the traditional 1937 frame. That date shows that the drawing was done quite early in the 1936 production. Also - The trans support braket bracket part serial number YE-751 and the drawing number for this outrigger/support part is 1640-36. Note that this part was drawn in 1936 and has a 1936 drawing number. Regards Steve

Good info!

But I would not say July 10, 1936 is early production for the 36EL or early for designing the upgraded '37 style frame either. They needed lead time to get things drawn, approved, prototyped and tested. And then the new frame "lugs" ordered and also tooling and fixtures made for actual frame production.

That's not saying some late 36EL's didn't have '37 style frames -- I don't know -- but since the '36 frame was inferior, it makes sense they would have used it as soon as it was ready. Still lacking, however, is period evidence one way or another. As Pete said, the first thing to determine is what a high/late number 36EL actually is -- i.e.: 2600s, 2700s, 2800s, or 2900s. That's a HUGE range and needs to be narrowed down before anything about frames can be determined.

[HarleyCreation]

Herb.
Apart from the fact that this is an early style case with a late number, The first thing to observe with Vin number 36EL2749 is the large gap between the L and the 2 it is unusual to have such a large gap on a Harley Vin Number.
The stamps used for this number could be Harley number stamps but they are from a different period. The font on numbers 3 & 2 plus the letter L were not used on 1936 models
The #3 should have a serif on the top; the #2 should look slightly distorted and have what I would describe as a small top. The letter L should only have a serif at the top left plus the bottom serif should appear to be slightly triangular.

Thanks for the lesson in Harley numerology. The gap did look funny and I wondered about that. The later posts by Sarge & Cotten showing additional motor numbers also help. Gotta brush up on fonts and other criteria...

#2645or #2711?
Sorry for the confusion, in trying to prove my point that there appears to be a lot of missing Vin numbers if 36 production went to # 2903 or above, I was using unscientific logic. Your research has given us a new highest recorded number 2673, Matt’s list appears to give an average spacing between numbers of around 20 so my logic was that #2694 and #2711 followed the pattern from your new highest number, but the gap s between #2711 & #2769 & #2838 & #2903 did not.

Pete Reeves. 860.

I get it now. As you guys will see in my next post we can raise good numbers into the #2700 range!

[HarleyCreation]

36EL2748: A new HIGH 1936 "61 OHV" motor number

Figuring a high number 36EL might be lurking in the 1937 Regs, I went digging and found one not listed in 1936:

"36EL2748" -- Lepsch Cycle Co. (H-D), Fond du Lac, #757

36EL #2748 is significantly higher than the previous high number of "36EL2673" (W. Wilson, Janesville). This would seem to put 36EL motor numbers midway into the #2700 range and no mistake!

But then I also found again in the 1937 Regs:

"36EL2648" -- Alex Spaeth, West Bend, #650

That got me thinking. Did Spaeth maybe sell #2648 to Lepsch and when it got re-registered the "6" got mistyped as a "7" so possibly #2748 was a typo because only that one number distinguishes them. Follow me?

That bothered me, so I jumped into the 1938 Regs and perused those. Lo and behold! This is what I found:

"36EL2748" -- Stanley J. Schneider, West Bend, #843

"36EL2648" -- Alex Spaeth, West Bend, #844

Obviously they are NOT the same bike. To further clinch it, "36EL2748" also shows up in the 1941 Regs still owned by Stan Schneider. That's 3 different references to "36EL2748." I'm 99.9% confident it's an authentic original Factory VIN and proves to me there were 36ELs up into the mid-2700 range of motor numbers.

What strikes me as curious is that Spaeth & Schneider both lived in the same town, both owned 36ELs with very similar motor numbers, and both registered them together (#843 & 844). There's gotta be a story behind that. Were those guys pals? Did they ride together in the beautiful Kettle Moraine country around Holy Hill and West Bend? Did Schneider fall in love with Spaeth's 1936 "61 OHV" and say: "I gotta have one of those dream babys!" Was it mere coincidence his motor number was so similar, or did he buy that one from Lepsch on purpose? I would have.

I'd love to get a photo of #2748 so I googled their names, but they didn't turn up. R.I.P. old Knucklehead riders...

With "36EL2748" our new good high motor number, that still leaves three higher ones on the 36EL Registry: #2769, 2838, & 2903. The first one is so close to "36EL2748" (21 motors away) that it "might" be a good number by default. Motor numbers #2838 and 2903, however, are much higher and with bigger gaps in the sequence that we should be cautious about accepting them without more evidence. Motor #2769 but especially motors #2838 & 2903 need to be EXAMINED to solve this important matter of determining high range 36EL motor numbers.

Comments?

[Chris Haynes]

Herb,
Your access to motor vehicle records amazes me.
Did any of the pre production 1935 E's ever get registered? My guess is that numbers started at 1000. I have factory photos of 1002 and 1003.

[Steve Little]

Hi.
Herb I aggree with your reply as follows...(But I would not say July 10, 1936 is early production for the 36EL or early for designing the upgraded '37 style frame either. They needed lead time to get things drawn, approved, prototyped and tested. And then the new frame "lugs" ordered and also tooling and fixtures made for actual frame production)
I added it to the debate for part of the final analysis.
Another consideration to take into account is the first revision to this drawing was made 10th of Sep 1936.
Desription as follows: Changed parts for fastening front chain gaurd. Autherised by C.S
This means that the frame was in opperation sometime between 10th of July 1936 and 10th of Sep 1936.
Using Chris's information on the production dates of the 1936 run.... this could put the introduction of this later frame at about 3/4 through the production =January 1936 untill Dec 1936
It would have more substance if we could isolate the delivery of the first 1937 bikes to dealers
Discussion/rebuttle from all is invited.

I will swap a copy of this Blueprint for a clear copy of any other Knucklehead frame Blueprint. I will be at Davenport next week.
Regards Steve