Rumor and shadows

[Chris Haynes]

It is a safe bet that '36 EL's were not being built as late as December 1936. Traditionally July was the changeover month. The dealer meeting showing the new bikes was generally in August. In Jerry Hatfield's "Inside Harley-Davidson" on pages 151/152 he quotes from information he gleaned from the Presidents Report. In August 1936 the decision was made to store the new 1937 machines already assembled until October 1st to give dealers a chance to sell their remaining 1936 models. September is usually the month that the new models are introduced to the public. But in 1936 the 1937 new model announcement issue of The Enthusiast was the November issue.
Jerry also mentions that in the Presidents Report it is stated that 1,836 EL's had been sold as of September 30, 1936. That is the number sold, not the number built. Other company statements say "Nearly 2,000 were produced".

[Steve Little]

Hi Chris.
If I get this right... you wrote earlier that they started production of the 36 EL in January of 1936.
And stopped production in July or August of the same year.
Regards Steve

[Chris Haynes]

Hi Chris.
If I get this right... you wrote earlier that they started production of the 36 EL in January of 1936.
And stopped production in July or August of the same year.
Regards Steve

I believe that may well be correct. Although I am not sure exactly when production started we do know that 1937's were being bult in August 1936. The 1936 EL was not a full years production. Less than 2,000 were made.

[HarleyCreation]

Herb,
Your access to motor vehicle records amazes me.
Did any of the pre production 1935 E's ever get registered? My guess is that numbers started at 1000. I have factory photos of 1002 and 1003.

No 35E's there, but there were some speed tests with those "35E" and some "EX" protos I seem to recall that I wrote about somewhere. Maybe I can find that info.

[HarleyCreation]

Taking it higher

It is a safe bet that '36 EL's were not being built as late as December 1936. Traditionally July was the changeover month. The dealer meeting showing the new bikes was generally in August. In Jerry Hatfield's "Inside Harley-Davidson" on pages 151/152 he quotes from information he gleaned from the Presidents Report. In August 1936 the decision was made to store the new 1937 machines already assembled until October 1st to give dealers a chance to sell their remaining 1936 models. September is usually the month that the new models are introduced to the public. But in 1936 the 1937 new model announcement issue of The Enthusiast was the November issue.
Jerry also mentions that in the Presidents Report it is stated that 1,836 EL's had been sold as of September 30, 1936. That is the number sold, not the number built. Other company statements say "Nearly 2,000 were produced".

That's info I had forgotten. Since we can trust that 1,836 "sold" figure and "36EL2838" is only two numbers away, that means at least theoretically it may be a Factory (good) number.

Being so much higher #2903 is another story, although they did say "nearly 2000."

So seeing a photo of motor number #2903 takes on special importance -- or some other source of information. No high 36EL #2800-2900 numbers listed in Shop Dope or other such bulletins?

[Steve Little]

Hi.
If I get any of this wrong feel free to correct me.

Sarge reported VIN 36EL2600 is in the later style frame.

Silentgreyfellow reported 36EL2617 was in the later style frame.

Sarge reported VIN EL2700 was in the later stye frame.

If we are talking about VIN's up to a minimum of VIN36EL2800 then we are already talking about a hypothetical number of 200 bikes.
If you 1936 gurus are pretty confident in your highest numbers then we should research back down the list...looking for the lowest number.

On the bottom of this blueprint (which is the later style frame) it has a bit of interesting information printed in the left bottom corner...as follows:
XE-801 Supersedes & interchanable with XE-801E, 111-35B after first 1600 machines.
Sarge's first VIN quoted is the 1600th machine.
I dont know what the part that Harley is quoting there, but there is a direct coralation in the part number change to that particular the machine.
Regards Steve

[Sargehere]

If I said 2600 AND 2700, it's a misprint/I misspoke. I was talking about Stanley Miller's original 36EL (Dallas, second owner & a daily runner) being in what appears to be a factory '37 frame. Have seen that with my own two. I reported the number to Chris at the time, now I'm not certain which it was. Will have to contact him.

[Steve Little]

Hi. This is what I was making reference to.

Sargehere;98999]Blue 36EL #2600 (abt #1600 of the "almost 2000" built) has a full-blown, five-point, 1937 frame identical to the one on my 1937 UL. I inspected it personally down here at Eustis last year. It's unrestored, and ridden all-over, owned by a man from Dallas, Texas, effectively its second-owner, and who confirms that the original owner (an aircraft mechanic who kept it spotless) swore to him that frame was original to that bike when he got it new.

[Chris Haynes]

Hi. This is what I was making reference to.

Sargehere;98999]Blue 36EL #2600 (abt #1600 of the "almost 2000" built) has a full-blown, five-point, 1937 frame identical to the one on my 1937 UL. I inspected it personally down here at Eustis last year. It's unrestored, and ridden all-over, owned by a man from Dallas, Texas, effectively its second-owner, and who confirms that the original owner (an aircraft mechanic who kept it spotless) swore to him that frame was original to that bike when he got it new.

This is very much like the story Jay got when he bought his '36 from the original owners estate years ago. The bike was guaranteed all original as the owner never changed anything. The only thing was that when I looked at it the first thing that jumped out was that it was in a '41 type frame and fork. Jay contacted the family and one again asked if anything had ever been changed and they repeated the answer that it was all original. Then he asked if it had ever been in a wreck. One of the children remembered that dad was in a bad wreck in the early '40's and the bike was taken to the dealer for repair. I guess in their mind if repairs were done at a dealer they think it was still all original, which it was not.
It is documented that a few '36 EL's had the frame with the 5 th mount on the transmission. How many is a few? Steve may have information about a frame change that we need to decipher exactly what they are talking about. Bruce has a poor copy of a frame blueprint but the earliest information on it appears to be 1941. Bruce got the copy from Ken Presson years ago. If anybody knows Kenny's location today they might ask if he still has the original print and if a better copy can be made.

[HarleyCreation]

Good interesting 36EL mystery!

Hi.
If I get any of this wrong feel free to correct me.

Sarge reported VIN 36EL2600 is in the later style frame.

Silentgreyfellow reported 36EL2617 was in the later style frame.

Sarge reported VIN EL2700 was in the later stye frame.

If we are talking about VIN's up to a minimum of VIN36EL2800 then we are already talking about a hypothetical number of 200 bikes.

But I can also add 36EL14xx that was in a 1937 frame. The point being that just because an existing 36EL today is high numbered (and what "high numbered" means isn't clear yet) and has a later model frame, doesn't prove anything. It only suggests something. But you're right-on to trying to crack this mystery. This is the best kind of Harley detective work.

Existing bikes don't get us anywhere conclusive but only muddy the waters. (Look at the early H-D Museum bikes!) There has been too much elapsed time/opportunity for a frame change to have taken place. We've already seen two good reasons for such a change: 1) 36EL frames were weak and prone to breakage. 2) 36EL frames were collected for racing purposes.

Lacking Factory info, what we need are period 1936 photos of the highest numbered E & ELs when they were still factory new before a frame change would likely have been made. That, however, might be hard to track down at this late date. But first we gotta do what Pete said. Figure out what a high-numbered 36EL really is: 2700, 2800, or possibly 2900 number range.

You'd think that if 200 (#2600-2800) or 300 (#2600-2900) 36ELs were built with '37-style frames, that would be a well-known fact, but maybe not. Lots of Harley stuff is still very poorly understood.

If you 1936 gurus are pretty confident in your highest numbers then we should research back down the list...looking for the lowest number.

Do you mean lowest 36EL number with a '37-style frame? If so, I'll submit 36EL1400-something. And 36EL2320 LOST its early-style frame and likely its motor, trans, etc. went into a later frame.

On the bottom of this blueprint (which is the later style frame) it has a bit of interesting information printed in the left bottom corner...as follows:
XE-801 Supersedes & interchanable with XE-801E, 111-35B after first 1600 machines.
Sarge's first VIN quoted is the 1600th machine.
I dont know what the part that Harley is quoting there, but there is a direct coralation in the part number change to that particular the machine.
Regards Steve

What a tantalyzing clue! I don't have my 36EL frame anymore (probably #2320), but if I did still have it, I'd rush out and examine it for any of those numbers. I can't remember if any of the "lugs" or fittings had numbers on them, but other guys should know. Obviously something important happened at 36EL2601 to be noted on the frame blueprint.

Somebody grab their Ouija Board and contact old Bill Harley!

[pete reeves]

In discussing how long it would have taken to develop the modifications for the new frame and the date of the frame drawing we need to consider the following points.

This was a new model that had a major problem. The frame was weak and was breaking, the factory would be aware of this embarrassing problem and would have given it a top priority to be resolved. Reading the reports in Jerry’s book it would appear that there was a team of engineers tasked with solving the problems with this new bike.

Sometimes when rushed to solve a problem engineers will make parts from a simple drawing, if the fix proves to be successful the drawing office will draw up a proper blue print after the event.

The 37 style frame was only an upgrade of the 36 frame. Most of the frame components remained the same; it would not have been difficult for them to alter existing partially completed 36 frames to the new format.

The August board meeting report is telling us that 1937 model year bikes are already completed and in storage. This would mean that the 37 style frame must have been in production in august. or posibly even before.

Pete Reeves. 860

[HarleyCreation]

EX & 35Es

Herb,
Your access to motor vehicle records amazes me.
Did any of the pre production 1935 E's ever get registered? My guess is that numbers started at 1000. I have factory photos of 1002 and 1003.

Chris,

Don't know if this helps, but it's still good:

Harley "61 OHV" Speed Trial
Date: July 10, 1935
"61 #9"
"61 #10"

From this tidbit we might infer that H-D had built at least ten "61 OHV" motors -- (or motorcycles?) -- by that date. If ten motors, they probably blew some up dyno testing, etc. That they only had two out for speed trials may say something.

Harley "61 OHV" Speed Trial
Date: August 20, 1935
"EX-5"
"35E-1002"

There's your "35E1002" and what looks to be an earlier rendition: "EX-5". If only we could get a look at that baby!

I agree that numbers started at 1000, so if you have a photo of 35E1004, that means at least five 1935 "E/EL" type motors were built. Since "EX-5" suggests 5 (or 6 if "EX-O?) motors, and they also said "61 #10" it sorta looks like 61 "EX" and "35E" production combined might have been ten motors.

But how many bikes from that? For sure three, but probably more than that.

[Chris Haynes]

As you know I have a lot of factory photos and I also have a copy of the Pohlman Studios log. The photos are in this log by numerical number. Sadly the date in the log is the date that the negatives were logged in storage and not the day the photo was taken. Here is a photo of 37EL1000 dated August 7, 1936. It would be safe to assume that several days, if not weeks, passed before the photo was logged into the archives.

[Chris Haynes]

[QUOTE=HarleyCreation;100076]
Harley "61 OHV" Speed Trial
Date: August 20, 1935
"EX-5"
"35E-1002"

There's your "35E1002" and what looks to be an earlier rendition: "EX-5". If only we could get a look at that baby!

Herb,
You have seen it, many times I am sure. Here is 35E1002. Photos logged in on October 17, 1935.

[Chris Haynes]

The bike that I find interesting is 35E1003. We see many things on it that changed before production. It has obviously had the snot run out of it.