brake cross over zerc location?

[Chris Haynes]

[QUOTE=Steve Little;90060]If I can ask you a couple more questions on your frame.... Does your frame have the foundry mark on the big triangle of the left side of the neck.
If so, does it have a number below it. "Your pic is a bit dark in that area"

Triangle? No, the hallmark is in a square as on all 1936 and early '37 frames.

Does you left axle carrier have a Hallmark or number after the XE-7. Is the XE-7 correct way up or upside down.
Can't tell as I am in the house for the nite now

Is the intermediate backbone 7/8" or 1"

7/8"

[Chris Haynes]

Here is how an early '36 frame looks.

[Tommo]

Chris and Steve
I'm way out of my depth here, give me a J any day, but I have a 37 UL that I know the total history of. It's been restored but it has always been kept together as one bike with no major component changes.
I don't know whether the ohv and sv frames are the same or not but I'll give you the details of mine and if I'm barking up the wrong tree just ignore it all.

Engine number 2851
Square hallmark on the head casting. (too much paint to make out details)
7/8 dia intermediate backbone
grease nipple 2 1/8 inches towards the seat tube from the crossover support
2 inch wide brace bracket plates.

My frame looks very like the last one you posted Chris

[Chris Haynes]

I'm glad to know someone else has one like mine.
Thanks Tommo

[Steve Little]

Hi Chris and Thomo.
I dont think we have all the information on these 1937 frames.
I have factory info that says the change was authorised on 3-5-37.
Chris had a early 37 "EL185*" which has the grease nipple out near the crossover support

Thomo has a " higher number 37 UL Engine number 285* known History bike" which has the grease nipple out near the crossover support.

I have a mate with a 37EL which has the grease nipple in near the seat post. "I will get the VIN tomorrow"

I have a 37 frame that has the grease nipple in near the seat post.

I have information on 5 other frames with the grease nipple in near the seat post.

The red bike in the judging hall at Davenport last year had the nipple close to the seatpost and I think the engine number was EL195? This is only 100 bikes after Chris's.

I also took pictures of a 1936 EL which was in the later 36-37 style frame which I will try and find.

I also have info on a known history 37ULH Police bike "engine 37ULH51*" which has the grease nipple in near the seat post.

What I'm trying to point out is that at this stage I am failing to see a comonality in the placement of the nipples but there seem to be more of one style.

Until now I was of the belief that all 37 frames had the grease nipple in close to the seatpost.
Yours and Thomos are the first I have heard of with the outer placement.

Chris, was it you who started the thread on Tom Siftons/Sam Arenas bike. If so can you see the nipple?

There was a post on the first page of this thread suggesting UL frames had a difference in the nipple placement. But the high number 37ULH police bike has muddied the waters. Appologies to whoever that was. I dont think I can go back to page 1 to get your name when I'm in this text box on page 2.

Any more 37 additcs out there with knowledge on this matter?

Regards 8000miles away Steve

[Factoryno3]

It is of course difficult to be sure, but many of these motors have changed frames. The 37E I used to have had the nipple towards the seat post and it was 37E19XX: One question could be: If an alemite nipple nipple is installed (as these were used up to 1937)
would it be possible to reach it with the original grease gun if the nipple is in the near seat post location with a sidevalve motor installed? If not, then the explanation is likely to be what I suggested earlier.

[Jerry Wieland]

For what its' worth this 1st photo is the OEM frame for 36EL2025.



This 2nd photo is of an early 7/8" neck tube 1937 frame.



This 3rd photo is the frame that came with a with a junk old hillclimber that I bought 30 years ago with the serial number 36EL2600 stamped on a 1937 OHV case. It has the 7/8" neck tube. This is possibly a late 1936 EL frame with the later sidecar loops because I also got a high case matching number pair of 1936 OHV cases with this. I suspect that the 36 number on the 37 cases may have come from the 36 set.



This 4th photo is of a mid 1937 chassis that I have that most probably had a UL motor in it if the length of the timer and throttle cables are any indication. It still has the open brake stay and a 1" neck tube.



This last frame is a frame that is a dead ringer for a frame that a friend of mines early 1938 has.



Jerry

[koanes]

The 001 picture is from a frame I bought 20 years ago, it had sat in a shed since the mid sixties. The man had taken the knuckle motor to a shop for rebuild, but man, shop, and motor disappeared. The trans I got with the bike was late 37. The neck had the large box foundry mark, reinforcement bar was 1", fork assembly is 36 early 37 type. The brake anchor stay was welded shut, the tool box bracket had rectangular threaded tabs. Picture 003 is from a frame purchased from a local 1% guy and I have no history other than it had a knuck motor. It has the small box foundry mark, 7/8" stress bar, open brake stay, no tool box bracket.

[rustynuts]

so, clear as mud, eh?

I am trying to correctly retore a "late 37" frame (described below) bought from J.C. last year. the crossover zerc is outward at 12 o'clock. there is some weld repair near the seatpost tube, but it doesn't appear the crossover shaft was replaced, though it could have been.

axle carrier:
left side- square hallmark with "2" both upside down, XE 7 rightside up.
right side- square hallmark with "2" both rightside up, XE 6 rightside up.
brake clip: closed with welded tab.
neck: smooth casting, square hallmark with '2", XE 35.
seat post cross brace: 2" wide
top itermediate brace: 1" diameter
side hack forgings: left YE 732E, right YE 761E
tool box bracket: 37 correct.

It appears to be a pretty decent frame. the usual weld repairs for a well ridden bike. Does anyone know the provinance of this frame out of the Portland area. Based on the above description what is known for sure? Don't hold back, i can handle it. Want to get to the bottom of this now, as final assembly begins early March. better late than never.

I am happy to hear there is a factory bulletin, signed by the man himself addressing this issue. What exactly does it say. I would really love to know. Seems that could put this issue to rest!

And for you judges- will the outer zerc location be a hit when i show. sure, i can easily move it to the inwards location. but then what have i done other than making it hard to reach? Seems I should leave as is. But if that's the only hit for an otherwise correct (though not perfectly beautiful) "late 37" frame, then I want to move it. Again, the deciding factor for me seems to be what the bulletin has to say!

thank you all for your help with this. it's a tough one!

[Chris Haynes]

A Late '37 would have the grease fitting in the outer location. What size is the reinforcement tube on the neck of your frame?

[rustynuts]

top brace tubing is 1" diameter.

[Perry Ruiter]

No mention of zerk placement but here's what the 1938 factory to dealer new model news bulletin had to say about frame changes for 38:



Later in the bulletin it does mention they have switched to zerks for "all lubrication fittings on all models". The bulletin is dated Sept. 13, 1937 and yes, the whole issue is printed on pink paper ... Perry

[Chris Haynes]

Early 1937 frame.

[Steve Little]

Hi. My knowledge of 1937 frames to date comprises of the following:
Upper rails are brazed to backbone.

Intermediate backbone brazed to the backbone.

Top tank mounts fully brazed constuction and brazed to backbone.

Front engine mount brazed to bottom tubes.

5/16 hall mark on left side of neck toward bottom of large triangle .No revision number.
XE-35 in 3/16 font on left side of neck.

Grease nipple close to seatpost.

Open brake stay "unless frame has been back to factory for any reason"

No revision number on right axle carrier

Rear engine mount has no revision number.

Seatpost cluster grease nipple is drilled slightly right of centre. no spot face for nipple to sit in

2 inch upper seat post cross brace.

I have not seen a 1937 frame that did not have the 5th outrigger for the trans but.... a well known guy in California "an AMCA member" once told me he had a early 1937 which had the bump bolt from the trans to the bottom rail and said it was original. I think the bike now resides in Europe"
This would fit with the possibility of the very late 1936 frames having the 37 style frames but no outrigger....which may have carried into the very early 1937 frames and could account for Bruce Palmers quote in the "How to Restore" book.

Chris.
If the frame you have is the true mate to that early EL engine number that you quoted earlier in the thread, it could be that the frame has been back to the factory and had the seatpost or rear engine mount replaced.
Is there a stamped number on the right side of the seatpost cluster?

The other option is that the original frame could have been dealer replaced with a early 38 frame.

Is there a number 2 under the foundrymark in the big triangle on the left side of the neck?
Earlier in the thread you corrected me and said "square" but I wasnt sure what you meant?

Is there a revision number on the rear engine mount or the left or right axle carrier. Check through my other criterea for 1937 and see how your frame lines up.

Regards Steve

[Chris Haynes]

Steve,
It is, no doubt, an early 1937 frame. The only thing on the frame that has been touched is the cap weleded on to the rear brake stay. If it had factory repairs it would be marked. I have seen many early 1937 frames like this and even a couple of very late 1936's. You are just going to have to accept these facts.