H-D Production IoE V-twins 1909-1929

[Steve Swan]

some observations i guess. 1st, is these bikes i'm picturing are restored and not original examples and as Tom pointed out, probably not reliable examples in terms of forming opinions or drawing conclusions. 2nd is i think i am going to slow down posting any more pics until we (hopefully) hear from members with more direct experience about these machines. in the process of waiting, if we don't hear from these members sooner than later, maybe we could give the thread an occasional "bing" to keep it alive...? 3rd, Eric the book you're referring to, is it "Classic Harley-Davidson" by Wagner and Girdler ? 4th, it sounds like there substantial information in books such as Wagner and Hatfield, perhaps this thread is redundant and unnecessary....?

[T. Cotten]

some observations i guess. 1st, is these bikes i'm picturing are restored and not original examples and as Tom pointed out, probably not reliable examples in terms of forming opinions or drawing conclusions. 2nd is i think i am going to slow down posting any more pics until we (hopefully) hear from members with more direct experience about these machines. in the process of waiting, if we don't hear from these members sooner than later, maybe we could give the thread an occasional "bing" to keep it alive...? 3rd, Eric the book you're referring to, is it "Classic Harley-Davidson" by Wagner and Girdler ? 4th, it sounds like there substantial information in books such as Wagner and Hatfield, perhaps this thread is redundant and unnecessary....?

Gosh, Steve!

All I did was scratch my chin.

....Cotten

[Tommo]

There's at least 4 books that cover this topic extensively and anyone who is interested in this subject should read and inwardly digest them
They are listed below in no particular order and yes some of them have mistakes in them.
Inside Harley-Davidson by Jerry Hatfield
The Legend Begins by the Harley-Davidson Motor Company
Harley-Davidson Data Book by Rick Conner
At the Creation by Herbert Wagner
The David Wright and Harry Sucher books are also worth a read but these two books have assumptions and errors that make them not the best reference books.
That's my thoughts anyway

[exeric]

Like I said, much of this has been discussed, but it always bears repeating because new members, and casual readers don't have this reference material. It's all well and good to be an "expert" or above the common schlubb that doesn't know about early H-D history but again, this stuff bears repeating because that is what keeps history alive. A forum is a living thing, and if we just assume everyone knows everything, then we're just wasting our damn time.

[T. Cotten]

Sorry to be a 'schlubb' by default, Folks, but...

I shy away from "coffee table" books.
(Got some hanging on the wall, though...)

Anything by the true scholar Mr. Wagner, however, is certainly a cut above those!
I know its no excuse, but I can't afford all of his publications, since only a few pages usually fall in my 'zodiac'.
But his contributions are the only reason I open my AMCA magazines.

Just being honest.

....Cotten
PS: So what on good Earth happened to manifold supports?

[Rubone]

Too bad this thread went downhill so fast, it initially had promise....
Thanks for trying Steve.

[T. Cotten]

Too bad this thread went downhill so fast, it initially had promise....
Thanks for trying Steve.

I learned a lot.

Ain't that what its all about?

Or do questions queer it for the 'elite'?

....Cotten
PS: Any insights why the H-D had a practical carb/manifold support, and then apparently abandoned it, only to return to sensible supports much later?
(Broken fins would only highlight the real problem, wouldn't it?)

[exeric]

Too bad this thread went downhill so fast, it initially had promise....
Thanks for trying Steve.

I don't think it's done. I give Steve a lot of credit for starting this, but it relies on input, and all of us need to keep it on track. It's easy to point fingers, but people need to park their egos and post what they know, and pictures they have access to; which will benefit the neophytes, and the experts.

My suggestion at this point is to forget 1911, and go to 1912 twins. Obviously, 1911 is too snooty for the experts to discuss.

[TechNoir]

This is a thread that is worth persevering with. I have been following with interest but I cant really offer too much for anything other than 1920 which is the year of my bike.

John

[Steve Swan]

This is a thread that is worth persevering with. I have been following with interest but I cant really offer too much for anything other than 1920 which is the year of my bike.

John

Thanks John, i appreciate your comment. '20 and '27 shall come and looking forward to getting our turns. i just wish folks with these early bikes would chime in, but then they may not be following the forum, have the time or care.

[Steve Swan]

There's at least 4 books that cover this topic extensively and anyone who is interested in this subject should read and inwardly digest them
They are listed below in no particular order and yes some of them have mistakes in them.
Inside Harley-Davidson by Jerry Hatfield
The Legend Begins by the Harley-Davidson Motor Company
Harley-Davidson Data Book by Rick Conner
At the Creation by Herbert Wagner
The David Wright and Harry Sucher books are also worth a read but these two books have assumptions and errors that make them not the best reference books.
That's my thoughts anyway

I'm guessing Wagner's books are out of print. i just bought Wagner's "Classic Harley-Davidson" for $27. the cheapest i could find "At the Creation" was $710.15... cheese and rice ! or Jesus Christ ! i guess the seller is fishing for jay leno. i have Hatfield's "Inside Harley-Davidson," it has some good information, enjoyed reading it, but covers alot of ground, thereby missing detail.

[T. Cotten]

I'm more than curious, Folks,..

Was the motor photo that Steve posted a prototype, explaining why I cannot find a manifold support in any vintage photos?

I find its attachment to the manifold/carb quite enigmatic.

Thanks in advance as always...

....Cotten
PS: That photo, and other vintage photos lead me to believe that placing the bowl cap directly beneath the airvalve is just a modern vanity point.

[Tommo]

I've lifted the page concerning the 1909 models from The Legend Begins and just hope that the HD Motor Company understands.
I'm probably sticking my neck out a bit to far but I want to illustrate to those on here the type of information available in this publication.
1909 has the first mention of a production "double cylinder" bike so I will leave it up to those on this forum to decide where the 1907 double fits in.
Finally I wish to publicly apologise to The Harley-Davidson Motor Company for the use of this page from their copyrighted publication and hope they understand that it was done in promotion of their book.

[Steve Swan]

Tommo, i need to get me a copy of "the legend begins." thanks for sharing. god bless H-D, can't imagine they'd be pissed off over such small potatoes.

[alanc48]

I have a 1928 JDL and can't find much information about them, anyone have any input?