H-D Production IoE V-twins 1909-1929

[T. Cotten]

some observations i guess. 1st, is these bikes i'm picturing are restored and not original examples and as Tom pointed out, probably not reliable examples in terms of forming opinions or drawing conclusions. 2nd is i think i am going to slow down posting any more pics until we (hopefully) hear from members with more direct experience about these machines. in the process of waiting, if we don't hear from these members sooner than later, maybe we could give the thread an occasional "bing" to keep it alive...? 3rd, Eric the book you're referring to, is it "Classic Harley-Davidson" by Wagner and Girdler ? 4th, it sounds like there substantial information in books such as Wagner and Hatfield, perhaps this thread is redundant and unnecessary....?

Gosh, Steve!

All I did was scratch my chin.

....Cotten

[Steve Swan]

some observations i guess. 1st, is these bikes i'm picturing are restored and not original examples and as Tom pointed out, probably not reliable examples in terms of forming opinions or drawing conclusions. 2nd is i think i am going to slow down posting any more pics until we (hopefully) hear from members with more direct experience about these machines. in the process of waiting, if we don't hear from these members sooner than later, maybe we could give the thread an occasional "bing" to keep it alive...? 3rd, Eric the book you're referring to, is it "Classic Harley-Davidson" by Wagner and Girdler ? 4th, it sounds like there substantial information in books such as Wagner and Hatfield, perhaps this thread is redundant and unnecessary....?

[exeric]

Also, look at a copy of Herbert Wagner's "Classic Harley-Davidson 1903-1041". There are good pictures of Bruce Linsday's restored 1911 double and we all know Bruce knows what he's doing.

[exeric]

Okay, I'm confused, Steve. That '11 is obviously the twin that Harley-Davidson owns and it's an early atmospheric intake motor. I've never questioned this bike until you brought all this up, Steve I do know there is controversy about this motorcycle in regards to no belt tensioner, and obvious tool room made parts. I know we have members that could give a detailed background on this bike, and the history of Harley's early doubles. I guess I could also read Herbert Wagner's superlative book on early H-D history

[T. Cotten]

Wow, a manifold support!

Makes too much sense.

Thanks again for saving my 'data usage', Steve!


....Cotten

[Steve Swan]

Thanks Tom, I'm glad you're "in" this thread !

fwiw, i googled "original 1911 Harley Davidson." this is what i found. (some of the pics actually enlarge pretty nicely.) and of course i realize anything we see on the internet may not be accurate or even real. but i found these pics, purportedly of 1909 model, could be of interest.... I've never been to the factory museum, so i don't know what machines the factory has representative of each/every year of production. Or if a person can get good pics of machines displayed at the museum.

VTwin011.jpg2014%2F11%2FHD-lead.jpgVTwin02.jpgVTwin03-770x1168.jpg

now what's hilarious about finding "information" on websites (actually disinformation) is the picture below, purported to be the "1911 Harley-Davidson V-twin motor with improved valve train." Even i know this is a 1927 engine; appears could be a factory picture. (pretty scary to think some people may believe what they read or see on internet is "true.")

VTwin041.jpg

fwiw, here is the link to 1909 information - https://rideapart.com/articles/birth...n-v-twin-motor

[T. Cotten]

I appreciate the transmission replies, Folks,..

But I still wouldn't be able to tell the difference, and the fellow left with the box before I could make my camera's 'dumb' card 'smart' again.

And I appreciate your pics Steve, as I am still trying to figure out the various positions for the Schebler HX bowl. It appears that Js have the bowl cap directly under the airvalve, which doesn't seem convenient to me.

....Cotten
PS: A fellow at D-port (sorry for my 'name block') told me that "H" models became "HX" when threaded manifold attachments were replaced with flanges.
Should I revise my notes? Thanks again in advance...

[Steve Swan]

Hopefully we'll hear more about the '07 - '11 "doubles." Moving along, here's 5 pics i found on the internet of 1912. a couple are somewhat large and better view can be obtained.

1912 LH.jpg1912 RH.jpg1912 sgf LH.jpg1912 sgf.jpg1912.jpg

well, turns out what i can see of these pics on my computer is not what shows up when i download them in to our website. so, not as large or closeup as i had hoped.

[Steve Swan]

Here's 3 pages out of 1913 MOTOR CYCLE magazines that cover the 1913 HD parcel delivery trike and details of the 1914 models.
I thought they might add some facts to this thread.
As for the VL gearbox the easiest id feature is the two ears on the drive end of the gearcase that mounts the inner chaincase.
You may find VL gearboxes that have been fitted to J models with these ears cut off.
If the clutch is fitted it will have a duplex sprocket and the main internal change is that the mainshaft no longer has a split brass bush for the final drive gear to turn on.
This is a very basic way to tell the difference between the two.

Tommo, thanks for joining in ! Those are great articles, i really enjoyed reading them. It enjoyed reading about the pedal start and braking system. These bikes were the true bicycle framed motorcycles.

[Tommo]

Here's 3 pages out of 1913 MOTOR CYCLE magazines that cover the 1913 HD parcel delivery trike and details of the 1914 models.
I thought they might add some facts to this thread.
As for the VL gearbox the easiest id feature is the two ears on the drive end of the gearcase that mounts the inner chaincase.
You may find VL gearboxes that have been fitted to J models with these ears cut off.
If the clutch is fitted it will have a duplex sprocket and the main internal change is that the mainshaft no longer has a split brass bush for the final drive gear to turn on.
This is a very basic way to tell the difference between the two.

[Steve Swan]

That transmission went through many variations, and changes, Tom. The profound difference between early and late is; the shifter escapement. Early trans has a rotating clutch release shaft that runs across the top of trans, late uses the more conventional lever type clutch release arm (like knucks, and pans). Unfortunately, late JD, and early VL transmissions are very similar, but my trans knowledge is limited to early Js and I'll only embarrass myself if I try to elaborate

We need Mark Masa ! (somewhere, in the past few months, i seem to recall there being a post asking diffs between jd & vl trans....)

[exeric]

That transmission went through many variations, and changes, Tom. The profound difference between early and late is; the shifter escapement. Early trans has a rotating clutch release shaft that runs across the top of trans, late uses the more conventional lever type clutch release arm (like knucks, and pans). Unfortunately, late JD, and early VL transmissions are very similar, but my trans knowledge is limited to early Js and I'll only embarrass myself if I try to elaborate

[T. Cotten]

I hate to stick my head up for abuse, and ask any more questions, but,...

Can anyone tell me the obvious differences from a J transmission and a later V model?

An associate just showed up with a prize from a meet, and I hope he's right that its early.

Thanks in advance Folks, because chassis are out of my zodiac,...

....Cotten

[Steve Swan]

Odd that H-D would allow an early design to muddy the water before the introduction of their improved 1911 twin.

maybe something as simple as "Motorcycle Illustrated" didn't have anything to go by for showing the new mechanical inlet valve design...?

[exeric]

Hatfield's book mentions the '11 twin had mechanical inlet valves; was this the first year for mechanical inlet valves ?

It has always been my understanding that the 1911 H-D twin had mechanical intake valves, but looking at the above illustration, you'll notice that rendering shows atmospheric valves, and that makes me believe that drawing is of a earlier H-D twin design. Odd that H-D would allow an early design to muddy the water before the introduction of their improved 1911 twin.