H-D Production IoE V-twins 1909-1929

[exeric]

Mark Masa could better answer the toolbox/batter box evolution questions, but I believe that tool box went well into the 1920s and probably until H-D no longer offered a magneto model. What I mean is; you got a battery box (square box) with an electric model, and the angular box, you called a pentagonal box was used on all non-electric, or magneto models. When you got an electric model, the toolbox was mounted on top of the gas tanks as you can see on the 1920J picture you posted, and this 1917 J picture. Phew! Early Js went through many, many tiny detail changes, but barely changed on the outside.

The picture you posted could well be a 1917, and this bike has the very rare Remy electrical system. The most distinguishing feature to appear in 1917 was the rear stand, and you can readily see the difference when you compare it to the 1916 Js. There were many subtle changes in 1917, most of which were in the frame. The early J era can be very confusing, as the 1916 - 1920 Js were very similar at first glance. Changes were more pronounced in '21 when H-D introduced the 74".

[Steve Swan]

Thanks Eric, for your reply. What would have been the last year for the pentagonal (i am assuming) battery/tool box? i have a quite a few pics that have the pentagonal box, and are called 17, 18, and 19 models, then the 20's have the square box again. so, i am guessing whoever assigned a year to these photos didn't know what they were looking at or did the factory go back and forth with the rectangular and pentagonal boxes, because in Hatfield's book, Inside Harley Davidson, between years 16-24, various years are one or the other shape.

so, here's what are called a 1917 model. Is it a 1917? What was first year for tool box on top of tank? 1917 LH.jpg1917.jpg

Another question, the rear brake, was it an internally expanding shoe design? Inner mechanisms seem pretty well covered up compared to the externally contracting brake on later models.

[exeric]

As you progress through the 4 pictures, the 1st bike is the most correct, and authentically restored 1916. The 2nd bike was probably a nice original before it was over-done (mostly correct, but wrong muffler). The 3rd bike has a later frame, spring fork, seat assy., gas tanks, and rear stand which are visible from the left side. The 4th bike, I believe is a pre-production factory photo of a 1920 as the cylinders are pre-'20. The battery box in the last picture is for an electric model, and all battery boxes looked about the same, starting from 1915. The other bikes are non-electric models and have a tool box in place of the battery box. The 1916 is my favorite J, but I'm prejudiced.

[Steve Swan]

ok, i thought i'd give this thread another kick fwiw. are these 1916 models? i will be posting pics of the rest of the teen models, and will be interested to hear the differences. on another note, i jsut finished Herber Wagner's "At the Creation," what a great book. and i also finished "At the Creation." both gave alot of great info wich answered my newbie-type questions. However, a lot of year/model specifics on the J/JD series is not collected in one place.

ok. here's the two pics i've found of what are called 16 models.1916 HD.jpg1916 RH.jpg1916.jpg

oh yes! i found this in my files, looks like a period picture? machine looks new. factory picture? the pic is titled as 1916, but seems the position of the battery box is later? 1918?

if you triple click on the pic, it enlarges delightfully! 1916.jpg

[TechNoir]

Picking up on Erics point about colours, I had some correspondence with a J owner in Slovakia earlier this year about Olive Green and he was telling me that he is also into classic Jawa motorcycles and he has compared various parts from the same year bikes that are in original paint and they have 5 or 6 slight variations of shade even though they are supposed to be the same colout.

I would imagine that the same is true of all bikes made in volume in days gone by.

John

[exeric]

Looking at colors on the web is useless.Each monitor can give diff colors.

The whole concept of defining color is a pointless exercise in futility, particularly when it comes to ancient colors like H-D gray, Olive, or Indian Red. There are countless factors that influence color, from proportion of pigment, degradation of ingredients, and the millions of different human eyes that look at a particular color. Also, H-D bought their paint in huge lot quantities of unknown amounts, so no telling how different those multi-gallon lots were from each other. All I said was, I prefer the darker gray to the light gray and wonder what H-D gray looked like in the 'Silent Gray' era.

[duffeycycles]

A quick look,the '15 twin should not have the bar & shield on the right side.It should have the oak leaf crest.Looking at colors on the web is useless.Each monitor can give diff colors.

[exeric]

Pedal start was still offered in 1916, and I wish I had it on my '16. Pedal start works much better on an ornery, obstinate motor. However, I think H-D was obliging long-time customers who preferred pedal start, to the 'new fangled' step starter. It was the same deal with electrics, which met with skepticism, and caution; and is why it's so hard to find generators, magnetos, and electrical components for pre-1920 motorcycles.

[Steve Swan]

yes, those appear to be 1913 models. 12 & 13 are very similar. 14 went to foot boards. 11 didn't have the sloping rear gas tank.

Footboards and pedals is quite the combination ! i'll bet when the '16's came out, the 15's fell out of favor, who'd want to be riding a motorcycle with bicycle pedals....?
I WOULD!!!!

[knucklehead 61]

yes, those appear to be 1913 models. 12 & 13 are very similar. 14 went to foot boards. 11 didn't have the sloping rear gas tank.

[Steve Swan]

I've always liked early Harleys in that darker shade of gray; whether that's correct seems to be the $64 question. If I ever restore my '16, I am fortunate to have an O.P. left side tank with glossy paint on the inside. I'm sure that is still no guarantee since 100 years of exposure has to affect the color. I guess there will never be a universal consensus on H-D gray, and Indian Red

in the picture of the '14, the color looks blue, is it actually the light grey and it's the light picking up pigment in the paint?

[exeric]

Whoa! I'm not going there, Tom

[T. Cotten]

Hokey Smoke, Eric!

If its re-painted, it makes little difference, as modern paints are spectroscopically different anyway.

Answer to yourself, not those who wish to rule over you.

....Cotten

[exeric]

I've always liked early Harleys in that darker shade of gray; whether that's correct seems to be the $64 question. If I ever restore my '16, I am fortunate to have an O.P. left side tank with glossy paint on the inside. I'm sure that is still no guarantee since 100 years of exposure has to affect the color. I guess there will never be a universal consensus on H-D gray, and Indian Red

[Steve Swan]

and here are what are stated as 1915 models.

Are these 1915 models? 1915-HD.jpg1915HD11F.JPG