Is this a 1914 Excelsior 7C?

[JoJo357]

You intend to restore it, GUTS?

What a waste.

Please, at least don't destroy the carb's nickle...

....Cotten

https://youtu.be/ivRKfwmgrHY

*M.A.D.*

[T. Cotten]

If we had a poll, Folks,..

How many of us have regretted putting a wonderful piece of History through the restoration meat-grinder?

Everyone gets to play with their toys any way they want,..

Until they prostrate themselves before the judges.

.....Cotten

[GUTS]

I've restored over 25 motorcycles and I don't regret restoring any of them. How many have you actually restored? I came here for technical help. If you don't have anything to say except to cut me down then stay out of my thread. I am very disappointed in this forum so far. I thought the AMCA forum would have people with much knowledge that want to share it. If I want to be put down and argue I will go to the ARFCOM general forum. There is always one person on every forum that thinks their opinion is the only one. Well Cotten or whatever your name is, you win, your the man, I won't be coming back here again and I really wish I wouldn't have spent $55 to join the AMCA.

[duffeycycles]

I don't know how close this pic is. Race numbers305.jpgRace numbers305.jpg

[T. Cotten]

I've restored over 25 motorcycles and I don't regret restoring any of them. How many have you actually restored? I came here for technical help. If you don't have anything to say except to cut me down then stay out of my thread. I am very disappointed in this forum so far. I thought the AMCA forum would have people with much knowledge that want to share it. If I want to be put down and argue I will go to the ARFCOM general forum. There is always one person on every forum that thinks their opinion is the only one. Well Cotten or whatever your name is, you win, your the man, I won't be coming back here again and I really wish I wouldn't have spent $55 to join the AMCA.

It doesn't matter who I am, GUTS,...

Its about the one-and-only Excelsor; Its unique History is literally written upon it.

"Conservation" preserves History. "Restoration" corrupts History.

I feel more pity for the machine, than for you when you finally realize your mistake.

....Cotten

[RichO]

Guts, Don't judge the AMCA just because of one member. You do the rest of us a disservice. There's more to us than you have given yourself time to discover. It's just one person's opinion. We've learned to live with him. And just when I thought he had turned a corner. There's preservation, conservation, restoration, and levels in between. It's what works for you! This '14 Ex has non-original paint and signage just for starters. Hard to conserve that. That could be fauxed like many I've seen and becoming more popular all the time but that's NOT original or restored it's fake. But to EACH is own.

[T. Cotten]

Guts, Don't judge the AMCA just because of one member. You do the rest of us a disservice. There's more to us than you have given yourself time to discover. It's just one person's opinion. We've learned to live with him. And just when I thought he had turned a corner. There's preservation, conservation, restoration, and levels in between. It's what works for you! This '14 Ex has non-original paint and signage just for starters. Hard to conserve that. That could be fauxed like many I've seen and becoming more popular all the time but that's NOT original or restored it's fake. But to EACH is own.

Rich is right, GUTS!

Furthermore, please do not judge the AMCA by its judging system.

It mandates that "restoration" should replicate a machine as it left the factory (a crate is excused).

The XLCR community should be the first to encourage you to preserve and conserve its uniqueness.

....Cotten

[exeric]

The 1914 Excelsior introduced ('14, and later Roadster only) footboards which are very hard to come by. Excelsiors of any year are tough to do and you need all the help, and contacts you can acquire. I think you over-reacted to Tom's comments, Guts. Judging is a topic Tom is passionate about, and even though I share RichO's opinions about judging, I have evolved an appreciation of what Tom advocates. Tom and I have had our differences in the past but he is one of the most sharing, and helpful members on this forum and is a wealth of real world information. If you do read this, Guts, you better stay a member of the AMCA because I don't know where else you could go to get free, and reliable information about '12-'14 Excelsiors.

[RichO]

Guts, I'll just add this and then I'm gone. I believe Cotton and I are both on the same page (from many of his previous posts) about our distain for the AMCA judging system. But it here to stay and we have to live with it. Chapters that hold National meets have to take half their meet time and many oersonal supporting it. The National now is leaning to Pebble Beach type standards as they believe there are to many Winner Circle machines. Wasn't that the goal, perfection. The bikes restored now are far more perfect than anything that went out the back door of any factory. They weren't made with the materials, time, and labor restorations take they were just meant for transportation and to make payroll. Most bikers today start with a pile of parts very few survived cradle to grave intact as they left the factory. Heavy riding, competition, and accidents have taken their toll. Just my three cents. I have seen money, value, ego, dark side, good side, and more taint this strive for something that when you reach it starts going the other direction due to the elements, time, etc.soon after. I guess you could seal it in a box and suck out the air. Instead let's gas it up and go for a ride. Weather be damned!

[RichO]

Guts, I see Eric slipped one in between Cotton and I so I'll just add this. Early H-D's are easier to restore than early Indians but X's are another thing all together. '11 and before are pretty rare and major changes from '12 to '14 and '15 is a major change again. My friend has three '12's. Chain and belt drives and singles and twin. '12 had an early, middle, and late model changes. What I'm trying to say is you need to do a lot of research before jumping off on this '14. There is information out there but you have to dig for it. Besides my friends X's he's into orphans like Pope,Yale, Reading-Standard, and a Thor. Bring them back to life makes an Excelsior seem like a walk in the park. Good luck! You'll get there!

[BigLakeBob]

Guts, hopefully you'll change your mind and come back to the forum. But, if not, remember as an AMCA member you have access to the library. Go to the main page, do the password thing, and there are many brochures to download that may help you with this motorcycle or ones in the future. Good luck.
https://forum.antiquemotorcycle.org/...rcycle-library

[FNG1]

Why is everyone so thin skinned anymore. The whole idea of the forum is to provide information. Obviously, this may not always agree with your viewpoint. If you ask for help. Accept that help and make use of the forum for its insight and knowledge.

[T. Cotten]

...I believe Cotton and I are both on the same page (from many of his previous posts) about our distain for the AMCA judging system. But it here to stay and we have to live with it....

The vast majority of AMCA members don't 'live with it', Folks!

They ignore it.

The system's ills were voiced long ago in the Judging Discussion section of this forum, and I suggested a solution would be to go virtual.

I was ridiculed, but that was before The Great Panic, and apps like ZOOM became mainstream.

....Cotten

[gharper]

GUTS, Please don't be offended by the arm chair generals! They can be a rough bunch at times but can offer good advice if you can sift through the crust.....

Now lets get back to the real topic, what do you have and where to go with it?

I believe that indeed it is a 1914 model 7 C. The serial # falls dead center of what is considered to be the best source of serial numbers, the Ballacks list, an old dealer from St. Louis. Interesting, 1914 was probably the high production year for X, at about 13,500 units. There were at least 7 different models available, including the racer and roadster. Most common was probably the 7C, or 7 HP chain drive as it was designated, so you would think they would be around. They are, but still not many and the trick is finding someone that has one, and extra parts to help you out. It is a nice start, very nice start in fact. Looks like the major missing items are seat, exhaust and some of the linkage such as hand clutch control rods, brake rod and lever, maybe more, as well as fuel and oil lines. Walker Machine has parts for the Eclipse clutch and Corbin rear hub and brake. Tim Tooley in St. Louis probably has the exhaust system. Seats are around, keep looking and asking. One of the hardest things about an X is finding all the linkage pieces and then making them all work is a chore! Many of these parts are either worn out and or broken. Various sources have come and gone for a limited number of these parts to be made. You may wind up making all of these parts, as myself and others have done over the years. The frame neck has been rebrazed, not an uncommon repair. I do not believe the gusset plate was altered. The frame tubes are a slip fit into the (shallow bored) forging and then sweat brazed. They often break, due to a poor braze at the factory, plus years of abuse on brutal roads. I would sandblast the frame and inspect it carefully, then maybe take it apart, clean and prep properly then re-braze. When it's all set up right, if flows like soldering a copper pipe and fitting. Not sure why the gaping threaded hole was put in the back of the cases, that needs to be filled up or plugged!

Now, the ugly question, restore or no? First off, its yours so do as you please of course. IF this was an original paint machine, I would beg you to not restore it! Many wonderful original paint machines were destroyed when "restored" and are actually not restored correctly and that history is gone forever. However, this is not and original paint bike, not in any way! It is an ugly, poor attempt at a restoration from years ago, and poorly done, though interesting in it's own way. So, by all means restore it. These machines are truly beautiful works of art when restored correctly. There are multiple colors on grey, such as maroon and red with beautiful pinstriping all over the machine, mostly in blue but some red and orange perhaps.

HOWEVER..... before tearing into a restoration, DO YOUR HOMEWORK, build a network, learn all you can, round up parts, fitting them as you go and take notes of everything and everyone you have contact with. Once you've got a complete machine, then tear into it and restore it. I'm sure you have the best of intentions but, too many motorcycles have been hastily taken apart for "restoration" and then the difficulties of locating parts, information life's other interruptions set in and there it sits, a pile of parts that often gets spread out, lost or scrapped. This is much too nice of a machine to let that happen!

As was mentioned earlier, get on the AMCA Virtual Library, as a member you can download all the stuff there. Not a lot, but some good X info there, that's a starting place at least.. You can find a parts book and sales brochures at least. It's helpful to have sales brochures from more than just the one year so you can compare differences. I copy mine and insert them into plastic sheet protectors for use in the shop. I still wear them out!

Most importantly, BE PATIENT, persistent and don't get in a hurry !!! You mentioned that you have restored numerous Japanese motorcycles for your friend. That's great, but any X is going to be many times more difficult! There is very little information available, in fact not much even in back the day. Parts are almost non existent and from past experience, I can guarantee that virtually every single part, if not missing, is broken or worn out and must be made new again. I've now restored 2 Excelsior's, 2 to go and hands down they have both been the most difficult restoration projects I've ever taken on.

Good Luck!
Gene Harper
AMCA # 680, since 1982

[gharper]

GUTS,
I must amend my assessment of the bike: The engine appears to be mid run 1914. The footboards are 1914 only. However, the 7C for 14 had a motor clutch and a simple dual sprocket countershaft. You have a motor sprocket and a countershaft clutch assembly which would have been the correct setup for 1912 and 13. But.... X was like other makers, they used up the old parts and sent the older models out the door even though they may have been designated as the new model year. It's entirely possible someone pitched the small motor clutch in favor of the larger countershaft clutch at some point. Or, it could have been assembled from parts back in the day and then given the lovely red paint job, who knows.

Either way, you still have a lot of good stuff to work with!