Judging System Question?

[kval]

Uh, Val,...

My belief is that "Period Modified" is an un-judgeable, subjective, vanity class.

The Chapters should be able to produce any and all the awards they want, be it people's choice, chopper class, or whatever. That's the entry point for new enthusiasts, where everyone can participate and have fun.

But the prestige of a National award should be maintained by restricting to objective, judgeable classes based upon documentation and historical review.
....Cotten

Cotton
you are right, that is why the host chapter picks those awards.

there are some chapters that do have special awards, like peoples choice or whatever, this is something any chapter hosting a national meet is free to do but unfortunatly not many do.

I totally agree with you about National judging

[LouieMCman]

That's one reason we have the Concourse D'Ordinaire show at the Southern National meet. It's a fun show on Saturday that anyone can put any old bike in. We had more in the show than the national judging on Sunday. And had everything from chromed out choppers to home built hit and miss bikes. Below are the trophies we gave out this year, next year who knows what we'll come up with....

Most Cobbled
Least Paint
Least Original
Most Rustic
Most Squalid
Most Chrome
Least Chrome
Oldest Bike

[Chris Haynes]

Cotton
that is exactly why I pushed for "period modified" as a national recognization award. we can get to see that 53 chief all chromed out with candy apple red paint job. that is what the owner wanted his bike to look like and everybody loves to see it

They do???

[Lonnie]

Tom is correct in that there is no middle ground in AMCA judging when restoring a motorcycle. If restored, all components must be restored. I lost points on a 1948 FL for an unrestored speedometer, even though it was an almost mint speedo. I was told then, and it is true now, that a restored bike would be requried to have a restored speedometer. That being the case, I bought a restored unit before the next show and set the original one aside. I have no doubt that some other owner would have sent off that beautiful speedo to have it "fixed". In order to include additional bikes, the true survivors that fall in between restored and original, there needs to be a middle-ground class for those with only repaints, mildly done extra chrome, etc. other than Period-Modified which is in effect only a variant of a Peoples' Choice award, only in this case the People are the event organizers,

Also, there is no process in place to deal with over-restored bikes. Whether we agree with the concept or not, powdercoating and bead-blasted stainless spokes may prolong the life of the restored bike but they do not contribute to authenticity, nor does the glossy paint seen on many Sr. and WC bikes.
If the logic is to have the WC bikes function as examples to future generations, then there is no place for powdercoating or stainless unless original to that model motorcycle.

The National Corvette Restorers' Society was faced with these very same issues and over time started judging to a more realistic model, such as deducting points for super-shiny finishes not indicative of a Corvette as delivered to the dealer.

[Paquette]

I think , in my own litte world , that I can agree with Eric & Lonnie ( both of whom I consider friends) that this subject of judging needs some serious reconsideration. I can agree that repop bikes should not reach top honors. But there is no category for those that choose to take an original bike ( or parts there of) and finding , searching, trading, for OEM, NOS parts to build a bike. It may not be original nor reconstructed, nor restored, but is an example of how the bike would have come to the dealership- We less than rich folks have to do so-I realize that my posts are invisible so I can speak my feeble mind--Michael--6671--

[T. Cotten]

I think , in my own litte world , that I can agree with Eric & Lonnie ( both of whom I consider friends) that this subject of judging needs some serious reconsideration.--

I wish I had thought of that.

....Cotten

[rousseau]

Cotton

Did you not say (on another thread or post) that you have never had a bike judged and/or you do not own a "judgeable "bike?

[T. Cotten]

Cotton

Did you not say (on another thread or post) that you have never had a bike judged and/or you do not own a "judgeable "bike?

Rousseau!

This is Liberty Motorcycle Specialties' 31st year in business.
(A profile written in 1993 can be viewed at http://virtualindian.org/5deallib.htm)

Albeit have never stood before the judges in person, the range of machines and the scope of my handiwork that has come under scrutiny would defy description.
(Although one Panhead stands out my memory, as after the customer sold the restored machine, the new owner had it judged as un-restored, and earned 98 points... Had I presented the machine, there is no doubt the judges would never have been so generous!)

I am compelled to consider AMCA policies, and consult with customers for their opinions and preferences, daily.
Again to be frank, The Antiques Roadshow holds greater sway over their opinions than AMCA standards.

Think about it.

.....Cotten
PS: At the bottom of page 2 of the "Knucklehead Re-Stamp Job?" thread in Parkinglot Chatter I previously made this clear. Too bad I was confused as to what I was replying to!

[fillibuster]

quoting exeric: "I have yet to see anyone on this forum say they agree with you because you have never defined your obtuse concept of 'destroying history'" end qu

I've been sitting here a little silent in Cotton's corner, but since "obtuse" has been defined a little we have seen appreciable agreement and understanding. My own wake-up call happened when I reviewed all the original parts on my Chief, a daily runner, and then thought of the original parts necessary to build my older scouts, because so few re-pop parts are available. I'll be using rust-pitted rims and broken-finned 35-37 original cyls, to EXHIBIT this portion of history. .. am I "getting it", Cotten?

"All that glitters, is not gold" ???

[T. Cotten]

Phil!

Yes,
but we are all going to "get it' differently, because every one of our machines has a different history to display.

Only the AMCA restoration rules declare that all machines must achieve a mythical ideal, and the rest be punished.

An entry level of 85 points should instead be zero points.
If the whole purpose was to have your machine critiqued for your own information, why set the barrier so high? That only makes it a trophy competition instead of a usefull service, that all can enjoy and support.

Many enthusiasts are already aware of some faults, but would never choose to change what Granpa cobbled. I have encountered a machine where a previous owner engraved his Social Security number nearly everywhere. An otherwise highly desirable machine is dirt by AMCA restoration judging.

Conservation should come before restoration.
Only the worst of garbage should be restored.

And I know my garbage.


....Cotten
The Dumpster Diver's Motto: "Seek, and Ye Shall Find!"

[fillibuster]

The dictionary defines restoration as a return to the original condition, along with various other references to original. Renovation is more of a repair, which would also adhere to the concept of PRESERVATION.
I'm likin' this more all the time, Cotten. gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg ggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggdddddddddddd dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjkkkkkk kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb,./v

[fillibuster]

oops. go celtics!

[T. Cotten]

Folks,

We could go on endlessly trying to sort out our different meanings for words. "Restored" means something totally different in "Walneck's" than it does to the AMCA, just I am an avid 'collector' of garbage, but not what people refer to as the 'garbage collector'.

(Well maybe.)

But there are a few words that need to be better defined in the Judging Handbook, no doubt.

A 'competition' motorcycle is an appropriate use of the word, but the word 'competition' should be stricken everywhere else.

The historical failure of the AMCA judging system is that it has failed to overcome I-beat-you-and-won-the-trophy mentality.

.....Cotten

[Britluv]

Starklite writes:

"Let's say just spent $25,000 restoring an Indian or Harley and it's not 100% correct, heck it's not even 90%, buut want to show it because it looks awesome, has a decked out paint and chrome job and everyone else who sees the bike says WOW! that's some bike."

Let's analyze this statement: First, he spends a small fortune on a job that he knows is not 90% or 100% correct, yet he calls it "restored."
Second, he wants to show it at an AMCA meet but knows it will be judged on it's originality or, in this case, it's LACK of originality. So he takes it to a local bike show
where people who know nothing award it a first place because it is "pretty."
Around here we call that the "Shiny Bike Award." It is merely mantle-piece dressing.
Third, he now wants AMCA judging to return to its status of 30 years ago, when bikes were judged on exactly those same superficial values, so he can win a trophy and advertise the bike as an AMCA National high point bike when he sells it.

See anything improper with this line of reasoning?

Or, am I cynical because, in my opinion, he wants this because he is in the BUSINESS of rebuilding and selling "pretty" bikes like this?

[T. Cotten]

Britluv!

Gary was merely lamenting that people with shiny bikes are left out.
And when it comes to serious National judging, a system that disqualifies at 85 points does just that.
There is no inclination to correct a machine that is refused.

There is plenty of room for those who wish only to "show" their machines, however, if Chapters alone accept the responsibility for vanity awards, be it 'most chrome', "most extreme paint", or my personal favorite: "Rat".

That way everybody that wants to gets to participate for a plastic mantle trophy.

But the National judging system must remain a separate, serious effort to document and authenticate historically accurate machines, and elevate the prestige and integrity of an earned National award.


....Cotten