Competition models

[FlatOutVintageMotorBike]

old black joe just the facts

Sorry if I insulted anyone with the "smoking crack" comment. The photos I placed near the bike were copies of photos from "The American Racer"merely to show examples of similar bikes and by no means meant to represent the history of the bikes on display. One photo was of an Indian and one of a HD and one of Maldwyn Jones on a similar Excelsior. I've heard so many rumors of what old black joe has done in the past, it's mind boggling, and this is a good example of how things get blown out of proportion. I have to admit I put two old chains on the bike instead of new in keeping with the old look of the bike. I tried to find all old nuts and bolts so they wouldn't stick out like a sore thumb. And the handlebar attaching bolts had to be made as I couldn't find them. They were shiny and new and looked horrible. I guess I should have left them that way. Many of the parts I put on did not have a matching patina to this motorcycle so I threw some plain old dirt on them. That's the secret to my patina. Just acquired a clutch pedal and rod from Davenport - unfortunately it was glass beaded and the only one I could find. Should I put it on like that? As for South Dakota. that's where I thought the seller was from- maybe it's North Dakota. Please stop by at Oley to examine the bike and I'd be happy to talk to anybody about old bikes cause i love em all! Thanks - Dave

[Lonnie]

Argh!

This thread exposes what is happening at all levels of the hobby and all makes, too. I personally know of a '46 and a '48 Harley both built around original paint sheetmetal and both patinaed (is that a word?) elsewhere to appear to be original untouched originals. And I know of a very early knuck that has 100% fake patina - if you don't know, the paint appears to be original paint weathered by the years! Otherwise it's a collection of well-worn but usable parts. In all these cases, the owners have many years of life left, Lord willing, and there is neither need nor intention to sell. From the attention these bikes get, the effort is worth it to the owners. Put one of them in a row of restored bikes and the "original paint" gets more looks than all the others combined! The onlookers are all fooled into believing they are looking at a true survivor.

Even "American Iron" magazine devotes articles in two successive issues about making a semi-restored bike look old!

In all the cases I mention, will the owner eventually decide to restore the bike? We all know the answer to that is probably not. At some point will that owner/builder let the bike go? Certainly, even if it is to a survivor or at the estate sale. Will the knowledge that the bike is not as presented be passed along? Perhaps not. So where does that leave an unsuspecting buyer?

We used to have a saying when we looked over an old bike or car, that it was "honest", that what you saw was the real deal, that the nick, chips, dents and rust all told a story about the vehicle. So where does that leave these "rustifications"?

[Chris Haynes]

To me rustifications and crusttifications equals counterfeiting.
Main Entry: 2counterfeit
transitive senses
: to imitate or feign especially with intent to deceive ; also : to make a fraudulent replica of.
intransitive senses 1 : to try to deceive by pretense or dissembling
2 : to engage in counterfeiting something of value

[jurassic]

sorry i missed the controversy,had to collect an old indian from winnipeg. Dave ,i am sorry if my ebay auction misled you.i cant remember much about it,i dont think i described the bike as you say.maybe i did.i stand by my statement years ago " i build fake bikes" and nothing i sell has history or i wouldn't be selling it.always has been ,always will be. i too have heard many things about old black joe,and just assumed that it was yet another one of my bikes being "passed off ",as there have been a few,though not by me.that was a bad assumtion.i'm really sorry this has to ruin our friendship,because i respect your abilities and knowledge greatly. if i need to be made the culprit in this then i accept that. lonnie isam jr.

[c.o.]

Well if that response doesn't calm the heated opinions then nothing will.......... So what kinda injun did ya scoop??

[bmh]

Well, Dad always said to be careful, could be snakes in the wood pile. He just never mentioned there could be so many or how big they could be. I have made my feeelings on these "fake bikes" clear in this and previous threads. The Genies out of the bottle, people are going to do this. I will not knowingly be a part of it. Unfortunatly I will most likely be even more sceptical of the machines and parts I consider for purchase. And to those who continue to build these things I have a few thoughts. No matter how honest you may be when you sell your creation, somewhere down the line some greedy SOB is gonna pass it off to some poor shmuck to make a fast buck. Most people, even when caught red handed will not admit to thier crime. They instead will point at the person behind them in the chain. So when the scam gets uncovered and the pointin and shoutin starts. Don't be shocked or upset when it all leads back to you and you've got no one behind you to point at. After all, you knew there were snakes in this wood pile too.

[George Greer]

sorry i missed the controversy,had to collect an old indian from winnipeg. Dave ,i am sorry if my ebay auction misled you.i cant remember much about it,i dont think i described the bike as you say.maybe i did.i stand by my statement years ago " i build fake bikes" and nothing i sell has history or i wouldn't be selling it.always has been ,always will be. i too have heard many things about old black joe,and just assumed that it was yet another one of my bikes being "passed off ",as there have been a few,though not by me.that was a bad assumtion.i'm really sorry this has to ruin our friendship,because i respect your abilities and knowledge greatly. if i need to be made the culprit in this then i accept that. lonnie isam jr.

Wow.............

"i stand by my statement years ago " i build fake bikes" and nothing i sell has history or i wouldn't be selling it.


Do you think that what your doing is the right thing to do??

I don't.

Someone is surely going to dissapointed..........why don't you just sell parts..

Or quit

Just amazing thread

George

[Paps]

Snakes in the wood pile ? Venemous ones to boot ! Paps

[fabercycle]

Concerning using "fake" parts in a build......(short of a whole bike that way)

I just read the topic in the new club magazine about judging the original condition bikes, and it seems the rules both encourage, and condemn adding patina to a part to get it to match.

They look for pieces that are "too new" to count points off..... but......yet condemn the practice of aging a piece to match. In reality, if you are dealing with a teens bike, there are certain pieces, that you will never find in the appropriate condition, to just "bolt on".

In the world of antique art, paintings are touched up and repaired regularly to preserve them from the ravages of time, and no-one gets their "shorts in a knot" over that....nor does it change their 7 million dollar price tag.

Just a thought

Woudn't it be funny if the old black joe bike was really a "more famous" bike back in the day.......we don't really know. It's still a "real old bike" and piece of history regardless.

[exeric]

I think Jurrasic is an artist. I hope he continues to produce works of art well into the future. In many cases he is starting with only an engine or a frame and through skill, devoted attention to detail, and historical research he brings another piece of history back to a tangible, 3 dimensional state. What he does is priceless and will serve future devotees of the antique motorcycle.

I remember the ebay ad and it was not misleading. He was advertising a collection of Excelsior parts that would be a good foundation for a restoration. He never said it was a race bike. I remember it because I'm tuned into Excelsior stuff and I thought about buying that pile.

What the next owner does with Jurrasic's bikes or anyone's bike that is sold is their business. Caveat Emptor, let the buyer beware. In our hobby we have to know what we're looking at. Knowledge is a huge part of this and when some rich (or dumb) guy buys a bike without knowing it's background or it's basic historical place in motorcycling, he's probably going to pay too much. It's no different than the stock market.

[indianut]

I would be willing to bet that a huge % of the people here would have done the exact same thing with that pile! For the same reason the guy who did it did it. For personal pleasure and satisfaction. In my opinion there are tons of 'restored' bikes out there, even high point winners, that are Loaded with Fake Parts. Heck EVERY re-pop part any of us has ever bought is, in reality, counterfeit.

[exeric]

That's an excellent point Danny. I just finished re-working a re-pop rear fender for my '48FL and I went to great pains to change the braces, rivets, and hinge to replicate a genuine fender. What are the ethics of that if I forget to tell the next potential owner that it's not real ?

[T. Cotten]

When I first formed my business three decades ago, I made the mistake of telling my insurance agent that I occasionally 'fabricated' parts. "Then you must have manufacturer's insurance!" he exclaimed with his lace in a knot.

When I noted it to my attorney, he replied with distain: "Fabricating is counterfeiting."

They are words that mean different things to different people, like "original", or "restored".

Please consider the two DLX70's pictured below.
(The first is thanx to the Dec. issue of IronWorks magazine.)

Frankly, they are both "fakes" in one way or another. But one has been faked by a "restoration expert", and one has been faked by a student of carburetors. Which one should an AMCA judge point his stinkfinger at? Which one has been irreversibly altered forever?

IMHO, over-restoring has always been more of a threat to history than piling up refugee parts from swapmeets and making a machine out of them.

....Cotten

[jurassic]

1919 powerplus

here is a new project.should i spend 2 years and 20 grand and cover up all these excellent original parts,or spend 2 weeks and a few grand and just get her back with the living?or maybe i should just part it out on ebay,lord knows i'd make more money.what is the best way to honor this motorcycle and preserve history?

[fabercycle]

Even the MOCO has a hard time getting their history story straight....and that started a long time ago.

There's really nothing new going on.