Competition models

[Chris Haynes]

An unrestored racer is usually a mixture of parts from here and there. This is fine in the unrestored class. But when a racer is "Restored" shouldn't it be as it left the factory? Otherwise the word "Restored" is meaningless.

[46WL]

Yes, I think a restored bike should be as it left the factory. Why would you judge anything but that? I'm missing the point of judging an unrestored, as-raced machine? What exactly are they judging, and for what reason?

[40 Nuck]

Good point, WL. I guess I would want to see a racer at a show for the history, and to see what kind of period modifications were in vogue. And I would want to see it unrestored, unless it was so deteriorated that it wasn't representative of how it was raced. Judging it either way would be kind of pointless unless it was raced as from the factory, and that didn't happen. The thought of someone restoring a piece of racing history by backing off all the mods to score points in a show seems border-lne criminal.

[Chris Haynes]

I have seen "Restored" racers. Only they were restored the way the owner claimed he raced them. With the exception of every part being freshly painted and gobbs of chrome and modern tires. Not really as they were raced and definately not as they left the factory.

[T. Cotten]

If history is not preserved, it is lost forever.
Restoration guarantees it is lost.
Conservation is incredibly more difficult, but it has become our duty.

A real racer should still have track dirt in places you couldn't figure out a way to fake.
I wish that I had the time to get out of the booth at D-port to see this one: (attached)

Don't ask me what I would do for just one of the cans o' grease.

....Cotten

[bmh]

Saw that piece at Rhinebeck. They had a bunch of photos of the machine in competition and some general stills of it and its pilot on display with it. If I remember right it was there to be auctioned off. That would look so cool sitting in the dining room wouldn't it? What would be the point of restoring something like this? To me any value it has would be destroyed. In original condition it is a vibrant part of history, restored and it's just another bobber.

[jurassic]

old black joe

[jurassic]

heres a picture of old black joe after i mocked it together from a bunch of old excelsior junk,and before i listed it on ebay and sold it to its current owner .not an original ,as raced historical jem,but a very successful fake.i have heard alot of stories of its discovery and race history ,but the truth is i sold it on ebay about 3 years ago for about 8 grand.and its history is about 3 years.

[c.o.]

Well ain't that somethin'! I saw this bike in Davenport in '07. It looked pretty cool. I guess this proves that things aren't always what they appear. Nice job jurassic!

[George Greer]

heres a picture of old black joe after i mocked it together from a bunch of old excelsior junk,and before i listed it on ebay and sold it to its current owner .not an original ,as raced historical jem,but a very successful fake.i have heard alot of stories of its discovery and race history ,but the truth is i sold it on ebay about 3 years ago for about 8 grand.and its history is about 3 years.

Huh???

Successful fake?

[bmh]

I suppose if I had really been paying attention the screws holding the name plates on the tanks should've been a clue that all was not right. I still stand by my original statement, as I've said before I think we should do all that is possible to preserve history rather than create it. This just serves to reinforce my objection to the whole "RUSTORATION" thing that seems to be starting to take hold. No matter how honest the creator of a machine may be about its origins, it doesn't take long for that to change and things to become misrepresented. I guess the moral here is an old one.... buyer beware. I do need to ask two questions though. First, so I may spot these things and steer clear in the future, how did ya get such an even look to the rust, corrosion and grime? I wasn't aware they were making rust and dirt powder coat. And second, what was the motivation for the project? We've been known to make wind chimes , ashtrays, tools , doorstops, and all other manner of useful and decorative items from old bike parts. I can even understand putting together some old parts into the form of an old racer for garage art, but at least to me when someone rusted her up and grimed her down they were at the very least standing in the shadow of deceit. by your own admision it's "a successful fake" so pefrhaps you were much closer than the shadows?

[jurassic]

i guess in truth the bike isn't really fake.it is original old excelsior parts.i originally bought the bike from jeff decker,in a pile.he cut the old black joe emblems off of an original grease bucket.i kinda liked the tank emblems except that they were screwed into the tank with self tappers ,rendering the tank unusable.i mocked the bike up and found wheels and a carb for it,but the engine was a useless shell.i quickly lost interest and flung it on ebay as you see it in the pic i posted.only lost about 3 grand on it too.about a year later i was at oley ,and dale was raving about this unbelievable excelsior that was just pulled out of a" barn" and was raced and sponsered by the old black joe grease company ,etc. etc. so i went to take a look,and sure enough it was old black joe.i must admit it looked great,and i have learned alot from the way it was antiqued and the patina that was applied.i wish i could take credit for it ,but i can not.i'm not here to pass judgement,i'm just telling what i know of the bike.i do see your piont that as time passes more and more of these patina jobs will be passed off as real,as will the restored replicas.this is something i can do nothing about ,other than trying to document everything i build.i do agree that i am only making the problem worse by trying to make these projects look as real as possible. but this is what i do ,and i cant stop doing it.

[jurassic]

i just want to say that dale was just relaying the "story " he had been told by old black joes owner.i am not implying that dale owns or built old black joe.

[c.o.]

There's some valid points circulating in this thread. It is very important (in my opinion) to document any restoration, whether it be a shiney (better than new) paint job or a patina job. Unfortunately as good and as honest as intentions may be, the next owner or the one after that may not relay the history behind their "barn find". We are a lot of years away from when these machines were new. Things are getting blurrier by the minute. As near as I can figure, when you are looking at purchasing a machine and your not sure about it, check with one of the experts in this club. On the other side of the coin, I'm appalled at how many original paint machines were shamelessly stripped of their soul and history for the sake of a shiney bike. I am particularily drawn to original paint machines, but I have to say I can appreciate the "new" patina jobs. I'd walk by a shiney one to look at the rust anyday!

[T. Cotten]

Like I said, I really wish I could get out of the booth sometimes.....

Even though Old Black Joe is a mocked-up pile o' parts, it still honors history.
My front security door is made of welded-together Chief drum sprockets. It preserves history in that they display incredible duty and abuse that modern riders (well, except sportster riders maybe) cannot fathom. It is hard to imagine how some of the sprockets could grab a chain at all.

The new interest in patinated runners is fine by me.
I did it for decades, although usually I depended upon long hard service for the finishing touches.
Vintage motorcyclING is not preserved by over-restoring and displaying the machines by the fireplace. The machines should be savored slowly, but consumed none the less.

....Cotten