Competition models

[Magic]

Keep riding them

The machines should be savored slowly, but consumed none the less.

....Cotten

Couldn't say it any better, Merlin in Pa.

[bmh]

I too really enjoy old crusty original machines, I also enjoy seeing fully restored machines ( over restored is a whole other matter) My friends and I have always rode fairly hard and take every scrape, ding and chip as a badge of honor. I suppose one of my chief objections to the patina deal is it seems like cheating. Just like all the minions who file through the dealership doors and emerge on the other side as an " instant biker". So it's not a fraud because it is all original Excelsior parts? By that reasoning if I throw a set of original paint tins on an old beater pan does it now become an "Original paint machine"? Technically that would not be a lie. I would imagine there would be a sizable difference in value between the two. Is that what you would be expecting if you purchased an original paint machine?

[jurassic]

in my opinion old black joe is not a fraud.the manufactured history is a fraud. the motorcycle is what it is,a nice representation of a late teens privateer hillclimber.the original photos of the bike that were shown at rhinebeck are news to me.how they got period pics of the bike is beyond my comprehension. as for restored bikes,personally i hate filling, primering ,and clearing nice original stuff.in my opinion you are just covering up an original part.the definition of restore is to put back to its original condition.in my opinion ,the guy who spends a fortune on only original ,as used,parts for his 1948 pan,and puts it together with original paint tins,is in fact restoring his bike.and should be applauded for having a more original bike than his shiney counterpart.i know this scenario is rather rare ,but it is being done.and like many 1948 panhead owners know,they can tell the difference between repo parts and original parts ,and the same goes for the early bikes.you can tell the difference.so i believe in the future there will be experts who can tell a prospective buyer whether or not he is buying a real historically significant machine.the only other thing i can say about old black joe is ,if i wanted to pass off a faked up race bike as real i sure wouldn't buy it on ebay in front of god and everybody ,and thousands of antique motorcycle buffs,and then take it to the largest antique motorcycle event in the country one year later ,and tell all the same antique motorcycle buffs that it was built 92 years ago.that takes balls.

[servicardenise]

competition add ons

I think that competition bikes can have stuff that is not from that era. I mean if it was raced up until 1965 and it was a 40's bike I believe it is ok. I helped to judge a bike that had some billet material with wholes drilled in it and it was acceptable because the bike was racing with that stuff on there. Competition bikes often have a mix of new and old. To do a restoration on them seems tough, do you just start restoring them with all old stuff? I hate to stick my neck out there, but I think that with competition bikes you need to see what the purpose is for doing any changes. Hey Kevin what do you say? Denise

[rwm]

see OLD BLACK JOE @ www.flatoutvintagemotorbike.com

[Snakeoil]

Wow, Dave is a member of our chapter. I'm a newbie so he would not know me, except possibly if he saw me. I wonder if he's seen this thread yet. Also wonder what he paid for the bike.

[exeric]

I must confess that I have contempt for anyone that would deliberately mislead people regarding the history of an object. Especially if it will enhance the value of that object. I have no problem with people doing it for asthetic reasons or for fun, just so long as we're all in on it.

[FlatOutVintageMotorBike]

old black joe just the facts

quite a controversy

[FlatOutVintageMotorBike]

old black joe just the facts

wow what a controversy

[FlatOutVintageMotorBike]

old black joe just the facts

old black joe was listed on ebay in summer of 2005 by jurassic racing. it's description was "as found" motorcycle, tank emblems on motorcycle when found. I emailed some questions and got a vague response. . I bid on old black joe and emailed a few more questions but felt uneasy and removed my bid. The motorcycle reappeared in Feb of 2006. I asked the same questions and got the same vague response. But this time I asked specifically about old black joe and again was told it was on the motorcycle when acquired. The part about it being placed on the tank by a friend was conveniently left out. I decided to purchase it with some reluctance. When I received the bike it was missing many parts. The engine had no internal parts. I happened to have a 1917 EXCELSIOR ENGINE IN MY SHOP 100% complete so I wasn't worried. It was easier to swap out the engine than try to trade parts. I spent the next three years obtaining many missing parts. A good friend, Bill Nugent, intrigued by the name old black joe, scoured the internet and found the grease cans which I purchased and put on running boards for public to see. I was mesmerized that they matched exactly. Everyone who saw them linked the tanks and cans together as a sponsorship. I never claimed any racing or competition history, since I have no documentation. The person who claims there are photos of old black joe in competition, shown by me at Rhinebeck, must have been smoking crack - I'd love to see them!
I'm guilty of a few things - I purchased a fraudulent motorcycle on ebay now admitted by the seller " here's a picture of old black joe after I mocked it together from a bunch of old Excelsior junk and before I listed it on ebay". To make this statement is scarey with a picture as well. I let the motorcycle spend a few days in the rain or nights out being too lazy to put it in the trailer. My web designer is a friend and omitted a question mark in the caption describing old black joe - should read "privately sponsored by john hancock oil co.? "conjecture only.
As far as the Dale Woxler conversation, it never occured. Dale obviously saw the bike but I was always truthful about telling people where it was acquired.
He may spoken to someone who gave him the wrong information. The motorcycle was on ebay twice for thousands of AMCA members to see - why would I make up a history and show it 6 months later? Anyone who bid on the bike feel free to email me.
Jurassic racing seems to be laughing at the fact that they sold me this motorcycle - I guess i'm gullible and believed what I was told and got caught up in the momentum of the grease cans. Anyone who buys anything from jurassic racing use extreme caution cause you don't know what you're gonna get. As for old black joe, it'll be at every AMCA swap meet with the ebay description and the description of Lonnie Jr mocking it up from junk parts - let the public decide. Unfortuneately, Lonnie Jr makes his living from selling motorcycles and this will probably impact his business but rightly so. As for me I do this for fun. I've been an airlne pilot for 24 years - twelve years as a captain. as corny as it may sound There's an FAA regulation that to be a captain one must be of good moral character which is apparently lacking in some people.
I look forward to your emails and seeing you at swap meets with old black joe and Lonnie Jr - next time I see you and say "hi" don't look away. My lawyers name is Brian Stone, hopefully ebay won't bar you from further sales. His number is 914-422-3900. You can call him if you like.
Thanks -Flatout Dave

[George Greer]

old black joe was listed on ebay in summer of 2005 by jurassic racing. it's description was "as found" motorcycle, tank emblems on motorcycle when found. I emailed some questions and got a vague response. . I bid on old black joe and emailed a few more questions but felt uneasy and removed my bid. The motorcycle reappeared in Feb of 2006. I asked the same questions and got the same vague response. But this time I asked specifically about old black joe and again was told it was on the motorcycle when acquired. The part about it being placed on the tank by a friend was conveniently left out. I decided to purchase it with some reluctance. When I received the bike it was missing many parts. The engine had no internal parts. I happened to have a 1917 EXCELSIOR ENGINE IN MY SHOP 100% complete so I wasn't worried. It was easier to swap out the engine than try to trade parts. I spent the next three years obtaining many missing parts. A good friend, Bill Nugent, intrigued by the name old black joe, scoured the internet and found the grease cans which I purchased and put on running boards for public to see. I was mesmerized that they matched exactly. Everyone who saw them linked the tanks and cans together as a sponsorship. I never claimed any racing or competition history, since I have no documentation. The person who claims there are photos of old black joe in competition, shown by me at Rhinebeck, must have been smoking crack - I'd love to see them!
I'm guilty of a few things - I purchased a fraudulent motorcycle on ebay now admitted by the seller " here's a picture of old black joe after I mocked it together from a bunch of old Excelsior junk and before I listed it on ebay". To make this statement is scarey with a picture as well. I let the motorcycle spend a few days in the rain or nights out being too lazy to put it in the trailer. My web designer is a friend and omitted a question mark in the caption describing old black joe - should read "privately sponsored by john hancock oil co.? "conjecture only.
As far as the Dale Woxler conversation, it never occured. Dale obviously saw the bike but I was always truthful about telling people where it was acquired.
He may spoken to someone who gave him the wrong information. The motorcycle was on ebay twice for thousands of AMCA members to see - why would I make up a history and show it 6 months later? Anyone who bid on the bike feel free to email me.
Jurassic racing seems to be laughing at the fact that they sold me this motorcycle - I guess i'm gullible and believed what I was told and got caught up in the momentum of the grease cans. Anyone who buys anything from jurassic racing use extreme caution cause you don't know what you're gonna get. As for old black joe, it'll be at every AMCA swap meet with the ebay description and the description of Lonnie Jr mocking it up from junk parts - let the public decide. Unfortuneately, Lonnie Jr makes his living from selling motorcycles and this will probably impact his business but rightly so. As for me I do this for fun. I've been an airlne pilot for 24 years - twelve years as a captain. as corny as it may sound There's an FAA regulation that to be a captain one must be of good moral character which is apparently lacking in some people.
I look forward to your emails and seeing you at swap meets with old black joe and Lonnie Jr - next time I see you and say "hi" don't look away. My lawyers name is Brian Stone, hopefully ebay won't bar you from further sales. His number is 914-422-3900. You can call him if you like.
Thanks -Flatout Dave

This thread is wild...

Makes one very wary of the bikes sold at swap meets, and some of the sellers/vendors..

wow.

[Chris Haynes]

This thread is wild...

Makes one very wary of the bikes sold at swap meets, and some of the sellers/vendors..

wow.

Especially of bikes with signage screwed to the gas tanks.

[bmh]

No crack here, but thanks for asking. Can not tell from this photo I took at Rhinebeck if the pictures displayed on the bike have the same tank markings or not. The paper on the floor however does read "FOUND IN SOUTH DAKOTA" . Also note the frame in the photo of jurassic's mock up has gold pinstripes. The frame in this photo does not. I doubt a few nights in the outdoors washed them off so was the frame swaped too? Or was it Patinafied? By whom? At this point does it matter? The only truth that really should matter is that the machine is not original. This is exactly the kind of thing I imagined would eventually happen when people first started building these old looking bikes. Actually I think ( sorry, here I go thinking again) maybe it has a lot more to do with people using old bikes as investments rather then something owned just for the pleasure of it. This game seems to get tougher by the minute. If people selling reproduction parts as original, and not just on e-bay either, wasn't enough. Now a buyer must be on the watch for entire reproduction machines. I pitty the poor young man who decides to take up this hobbie at this point.

[FlatOutVintageMotorBike]

old black joe just the facts

yes that is old black joe and its the same frame with gold pinstrips look at my site www.flatoutvintagemotorbike.com for better photos unfortunatly there,s three years of dust and grime on the frame i gess i should wash it after every meet or show .I was asked if i would place some bikes in the auction as they had very few to start with . I told them none of my bikes were for sale,i was told they needed the advertisement and it would help promote the auction so i said ok and had a reserve of 125000 on each bike none selling ,but old black joe bid to 35000 maybe i should have taken the money ,the treasurer of my chapter tim asked me to place the bikes in the auction . flatout dave

[bmh]

I must ask then about the photos clearly visible attatched to the machine in my photo, the ones you claim weren't there and that I was "smoking crack", what's the deal with them? You also don't seem to mention the found in south dakota on the paper in handwritig on the floor beside it? I suppose some passerby wrote that out and just layed it there. Who claimed it was "FOUND" and not constructed? You or Jurassic? I also wish I could post a pic with the resolution on my copy, cause I'll be damned if I can see a trace of them pinstripes. How dusty is your garage? and grime? doesn't that come from riding them? I stick with my opinion, someone went to alot of trouble to make this thing look original and as found. I have no idea what a pile of unassociated Excelsior parts would be worth ( Maybe Eric or Perry could help with that) But I bet at 35 G's that the bidder was expecting a real hillclimber and not a wannabe.