Wrong paint, but still winner circle ?

[Chris Haynes]

Kevin, You just posted' "as for allowing a plus or minus 5 years paint colors, that is not true. a restored bike MUST have only colors for the year of manufacture."

It was several years ago that the judges were told that any factory color five years before or after the year of the bike would be allowed. I argued that it was not a good thing to do as how could a 1945 machine be painted a 1950 color? I was told that was the way it was. Since then I have seen machines at Dixon and other meets painted earlier colors and they were not deducted any points for it. And you were there.
So lets get this straight. You are saying that no other color other than the ones listed by the factory for that year are correct?
If so how did a 1936 H-D judged at Davenport 2007 score no paint deduction points when it was painted Blue and Orange? Neither of them were available colors in 1936. This is only one example of bikes that have been allowed to have non production year colors on them. The rules have to be firm. They can't change meet to meet.

[Paquette]

I have visited the H-D archives before this new Museum has opened. From that staff, I realized that bikes that came out on a Monday were not the same (hardware wise ) as those that came out on Friday. The same with seats and saddlebags. What if ( during the Great Depression" all the money you had went to buing a basic 1937 Knuck. 2 years later(1939) you had enough bucks to buy a 1939 Deluxe Regular Solo in a Rhino grain seat and a set of those nifty 1939 Rhino grain saddlebags? What is the problem. I realise that there has to be standards but if you look at how the bikes were decorated, pimped out , etc. Guys and gals would buy what they could afford and wanted!!!! Chris, I am sure you have photos that document my arguement---Michael

[Matthew N. Olse]

That was my bike that Chris was referring too, and he made a good point, the color combination wasn't offerred on the order blank. The blue that I painted my bike with is the correct Venetian blue that was used in 1934,1935, 1936 and 1938, the orange is refferred to as Orlando Orange, and is correct for 1934. I know of, and have a ton of pictures of quite a few original paint machines that sported color combinations that were not offerred on the order blanks, because they were special ordered. I think that the color rule makes sense for five years prior, but bikes shouldn't be allowed to have paint colors that were yet to be released. just my two cents

[Chris Haynes]

I have visited the H-D archives before this new Museum has opened. From that staff, I realized that bikes that came out on a Monday were not the same (hardware wise ) as those that came out on Friday. The same with seats and saddlebags. What if ( during the Great Depression" all the money you had went to buing a basic 1937 Knuck. 2 years later(1939) you had enough bucks to buy a 1939 Deluxe Regular Solo in a Rhino grain seat and a set of those nifty 1939 Rhino grain saddlebags? What is the problem. I realise that there has to be standards but if you look at how the bikes were decorated, pimped out , etc. Guys and gals would buy what they could afford and wanted!!!! Chris, I am sure you have photos that document my arguement---Michael

Michael,
I don't support your argument. A motorcycle is to be restored to the condition it was in when it left the factory, or is it when it was on the showroom floor? That has always been a point of disagreement.
A motorcycle is not to be restored to "as found" condition. The exception to this rule is race bikes. This is a loophole in the system. Why can a Board tracker, Two Cam, WR, or KR be equipped with un stock forks, lots of home made parts and painted anyway the owner wants to paint it?

[kval]

Chris
yes only colors available for a year are allowed, if an owner can prove that special order colors were available then we have no choice but to allow it
a 1945 with 1950 colors is a 6 point deduction, no if's and's or but's about it.
Kevin

[kval]

Michael,
I don't support your argument. A motorcycle is to be restored to the condition it was in when it left the factory, or is it when it was on the showroom floor? That has always been a point of disagreement.
A motorcycle is not to be restored to "as found" condition. The exception to this rule is race bikes. This is a loophole in the system. Why can a Board tracker, Two Cam, WR, or KR be equipped with un stock forks, lots of home made parts and painted anyway the owner wants to paint it?

Chris
a motorcycle is to be restored to the condition it was in when it left the factory, not as on the showroom floor
as for race bikes, even factory racers had bikes changed and a privateer would bring the bike home and make changes to improve performance and handling and painted them in their own colors, then went racing.
Kevin

[Chris Haynes]

Most Harley owners start changin' things on their bikes right away. "To paraphrase Jerry Hatfield" Indian riders add Harley parts to make their bikes run better and last longer. ;-) But a street bike has to have all the original parts returned to it and be painted stock colors to be judged.
If a street bike has different forks or frame it is immediately disqualified. Why doesn't the same criteria apply to competition models? If a street bike is customized it goes into the Period Modified class. Shouldn't the same apply to race bikes? Have two classes for racers. Restored and Modified?
To restore means to bring it back to the condition it was in originally.
Am I off base?

Main Entry: re·store
Function: transitive verb
Pronunciation: ri-'stOr, -'sto r
Inflected Form(s): re·stored ; re·stor·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French restorer, from Latin restaurare to renew, rebuild, alteration of instaurare to renew
1 : GIVE BACK , RETURN
2 : to put or bring back into existence or use
3 : to bring back to or put back into an original state : RENEW
4 : to put again in possession of something
synonym see RENEW

[bmh]

Kevin, I beg to differ on bobbers not being judged. I have seen at least one I remember this year. I assume it was snuck in through the Competition class as there is no way it could've competed in class 4. Yet anyone who actually knows racing knows that no one built a machine like it for any serious competition. It is someones idea of what they would've done in the day. I have no problem with someone preseving actual history if it can be shown to exist. I do have a problem with people creating or stylizing history to suit thier personal tastes. There are plenty of venues where one can display thier handy work and style for motorcycles, I thought our club was about motorcycle history and the accurate preservation and restoration of it, am I wrong on that? I can show photos of machines that can only be a few months old with scalloped paint jobs, does this mean if I have a bike that year I can paint it that way and still not get a deduction? Should that be a 6 point deduction, is it the same infraction as a 49 pan painted a 54 color? what of a 50 painted 49 burgandy?
Brian

[Chris Haynes]

I know a guy who has an original paint '49 Burgundy sidecar rig. The original owner added his old sidecar to his new machine. The sidecar is matching paint but is a 1945. Wondering how that would do in judging?

[Paquette]

Can't see the forest for the trees------

[Lonnie]

Referencing factory documentation, even that can be nuanced. In regard to H-D's, for example, the order blank for 1950 as shown in "The Legend Begins" shows the factory colors and two (I believe, working from memory here) optional colors at $10 extra. Yet I have seen a 1950 order blank at the MC museum in Asheboro, NC listing two additional colors at $13 extra, one of which is the 1949 burgundy which is the color I painted my 1950 FL.

I have also seen references to custom colors being offered pre-war and additional references when WWII neared that non-stock colors were being discontinued which would clearly imply that non-standard colors were offered prior to that point. In Harley Creation's wonderful book on Harleys 1930-41 there are several photos showing solid white '36 and '37 EL's. Likewise, the supposition of the colors of other bikes in that same book could also be subject to conjecture with the viewer making the assumption that a particular '39 is factory blue and white because that is a logical choice based on the colors on the order blank, when in reality that could be some other color combo entirely. All of these not-stock color options would have been H-D's attempt to cut Indian off at the pass, so to speak. Taking that into consideration, Matt's '36 would be considered to be in compliance I would think. Logically speaking, you cannot go forward in time for a color so that, in my opinion, is a no-brainer.

Racing bikes of any make are another bird entirely. Without some sort of documentation on a particular part or color combo as presented to the original racer, how would it be judged at all if it does not follow the factory specifications?

Further, as is the current dealer practice, it is quite possible that a dealer back then would jazz up a bike sitting on the floor - I personally saw this back in the sixties (remember handlebar grip tassles?) and doubt it was some new idea then. However, I believe that such items would (or should) be considered accessories and would not be judged, or rather would not result in the deduction of points - correct me if I'm wrong, Kevin. Case in point was my black '42FL with the long-stem spotlights with the shells painted black - when it was judged in Davenport four or five years ago these spotlights were noted as an accessory so they were not considered in the judging.

Lonnie C from SC

[Lonnie]

Referencing factory documentation, even that can be nuanced. In regard to H-D's, for example, the order blank for 1950 as shown in "The Legend Begins" shows the factory colors and two (I believe, working from memory here) optional colors at $10 extra. Yet I have seen a 1950 order blank at the MC museum in Asheboro, NC listing two additional colors at $13 extra, one of which is the 1949 burgundy which is the color I painted my 1950 FL.

I have also seen references to custom colors being offered pre-war and additional references when WWII neared that non-stock colors were being discontinued which would clearly imply that non-standard colors were offered prior to that point. In Harley Creation's wonderful book on Harleys 1930-41 there are several photos showing solid white '36 and '37 EL's. Likewise, the supposition of the colors of other bikes in that same book could also be subject to conjecture with the viewer making the assumption that a particular '39 is factory blue and white because that is a logical choice based on the colors on the order blank, when in reality that could be some other color combo entirely. All of these not-stock color options would have been H-D's attempt to cut Indian off at the pass, so to speak. Taking that into consideration, Matt's '36 would be considered to be in compliance I would think. Logically speaking, you cannot go forward in time for a color so that, in my opinion, is a no-brainer.

Racing bikes of any make are another bird entirely. Without some sort of documentation on a particular part or color combo as presented to the original racer, how would it be judged at all if it does not follow the factory specifications?

Further, as is the current dealer practice, it is quite possible that a dealer back then would jazz up a bike sitting on the floor - I personally saw this back in the sixties (remember handlebar grip tassles?) and doubt it was some new idea then. However, I believe that such items would (or should) be considered accessories and would not be judged, or rather would not result in the deduction of points - correct me if I'm wrong, Kevin. Case in point was my black '42FL with the long-stem spotlights with the shells painted black - when it was judged in Davenport four or five years ago these spotlights were noted as an accessory so they were not considered in the judging.

Lonnie C from SC

[Chris Haynes]

You will find the 1950 Order Blank with the optional colors here. But note that almost all years offered some sort of optional colors. So to speak they were standard optional colors. The option meant they cost a couple bucks more.
A friend has a factory letter signed by W. S. Harley that in 1941 he could order his bike painted any color he wanted for a $7.50 additional charge. Some prewar literature advises that you can order your machine "Any Previous Years color". On the 1935 order blank it is stated you can order " Special Enameling" and "Special Chrome Plating"
http://vintageamericanmotorcycles.com/v/orders/

[kval]

Lonnie
you are correct, factory documentation wins over everything, that is why some owners with HD's not painted the "factory colors" for that year have not had the 6 point deduction.
as for your spotlights, even with one person complaining that they were incorrect, the rule is the rule "accessories that do not detract from the overall apperance of the bike are not judged"
Kevin

[Chris Haynes]

[QUOTE=Lonnie Case in point was my black '42FL with the long-stem spotlights with the shells painted black - when it was judged in Davenport four or five years ago these spotlights were noted as an accessory so they were not considered in the judging.

Lonnie C from SC[/QUOTE]

Lonnie,
The judges were probably thinking of the fact that the black spotlights didn't start appearing until late 1943. In December 1941 the 1942 model year was already well into production and over 4,000 1942 civilian machines were built. All of the 1942 machines were fully chromed.