Wrong paint, but still winner circle ?

[fabercycle]

I'm hoping some AMCA judges can reply to this.

At Davenport I noticed a really beautiful 1936 VL, it was in the winner's circle area, having been judged already. It had a 1939 paint scheme, to match how it was in the 40s, from "history" he had on the bike. This was all very cool and such, and I understand what the owner was trying to accomplish, but......

Doesn't our club judge bike to the standard as how they came from the factory, in the year they were produced?

That being said.....the '39 paint job had not yet been conceived, so how could it be ordered.

Bottom line is, I liked the bike, but how can it possibly have a "winners circle" status, with the wrong paint job??? ?

[kval]

wrong paint, but

Fabercycle
that bike was just on display, it was not there Sunday morning for judging

[fabercycle]

kval,

I'm aware it wasn't there on Sunday.

It had already been judged previously, and had a winners circle award pinned on it. Winners circle bikes are no longer needing judging, that's why it was gone Sunday.

[schmittm]

I kind of feel the same way about a totally wrong paint scheme. Here's a few quotes from the judge's handbook:

Page 2: "The overall objective of AMCA judging is to evaluate an antique motorcycle which is in original condition or has been restored to the same state as when the dealer received the motorcycle from the factory."

Page 12: "A motorcycle may be painted any authentic color available for the year of manufacture."

Page 15: "Totally wrong paint color will be subject to the incorrect paint rule and a 6-point deduction will be given."

Winner's Circle status is only achieved after the bike scores 95 or above, a 6 point deduction would not make that possible. It only takes 85 points to maintain or retain Winner's Circle status, but how did the bike get there in the first place?

mike

[Lonnie]

I must say here that Kevin Valentine has instituted changes in training of the judges that with proper application should eliminate problems of this magnitude. I'm not saying anything here to detract from his predecessor who did a fantastic job in structuring the whole system, but it did appear that for a time that the overall appearance of a bike caused a lapse in standards. I personally watched a Duo-Glide receive a Senior Award - with a chrome front end, chrome or polished stainless spokes and other less-noticeable enhancements. So it stands to reason that there are other bikes out there similarly deficient. As noted, you only need to pull 85 points to maintain Winners Circle status but note that even if you fall below that you still have the Senior emblem to display wherever and whenever. I believe it's called "living on past laurels".

[jww]

I ran into the same type situation when trying to restore my 29 JD a few years back. Being a novice, (still am by the way) I asked around for owners of 29 JD's with the Winners Circle status. Met some very nice, helpful folks. But determined that over the years the availability of information has increased and the knowledge base was much higher as to how this bike appeared in 1929. I'm sure that by now the level of knowledge has increase even more and my Winners Circle 29JD has been surpassed with regards to "correctness". Makes it tough to stomach sometimes, but our judging system is an ongoing effort. Hindsight is and will always be easy to critique.
johnny

[fabercycle]

Jww, yes, also a true issue, but not the same.

The bike I'm talking about is obviously restored to a condition that was unknown to the factory in 1936........and even a novice will know that..period.

As Jww put it, we all look to winners circle bikes for reference.

So after being posted for a month, why isn't there an AMCA judge that can speak on behalf of this issue? (or don't they read this catagory?)

[Paps]

Not owning any winners circle scoots, or for that matter, any finished perfectly restored scoots at this time, I absolutely agree. This issue needs serious attention by those who judge. Paps

[jww]

Well gentleman i don't know the answer to your question, nor am i a judge. But will make this assumption.......as stated hindsight is usually perfect. If we started trying to correct mistakes/oversights made in the past we would be doing just that, looking back. As stated I am not a judge, nor "close friends" with the judging staff, nevertheless from my point of view Kevin, Robin and all of the others who commit their time appear to be doing everything they can to make the system better, today and for tommorrow. I can see their reluctance to dwell on what happened yesterday. Not putting them on a pedestal......but its a pretty "thankless" job. I have seen changes in the system which are good, is it perfect, no and it never will be to 100 % of the people 100% of the time. just my 2 cents worth johnny

[bmh]

In 39 you could send your old tins into the factory and have them re-enameled with the current paint scheme. Don't have that shop dope handy but could find it if needed. Assuming the bike was restored to "as found" condition, wich would include the 39 factory re-enamel. I think 6 points would be harsh( especially if pre-restoration photos confirmed this) I don't feel this is the intent of the "Dupont" rule. I would be expecting a 2 point hit if it were my bike. I too am not a judge, nor am I owner of that machine but I do know that without seeing the score cards or confering with the owner we don't know the exact situation. And that is perhaps why the judges are staying clear of this little debacle. Just my thoughts.
Brian

[Steve Slocombe]

I was one of the judges on that 36VLD Police bike. The tanks had obviously been repainted in 1938/9 to match the newer machines in the fleet, as can be seen in many of those Harley photos of a line of bikes racked up outside the police station. The bike was sold out of the service in 1941, had one owner for many years, then was bought a few years ago at an estate sale in fantastic original condition and restored by the current owner to how he had found it. The silver colour is all correct for a police bike, and the mudguards are also striped correctly for '36. The tank decal is the same 1936-39. After a debate we made a deduction for incorrect tank striping, but this did not take the machine under 95 points, so it got into the Winners Circle.

[Chris Haynes]

The club allows any color used five years before or after the build year. Don't ask me why they just do.

[Chris Haynes]

In 39 you could send your old tins into the factory and have them re-enameled with the current paint scheme. Don't have that shop dope handy but could find it if needed. Assuming the bike was restored to "as found" condition, wich would include the 39 factory re-enamel. I think 6 points would be harsh( especially if pre-restoration photos confirmed this) I don't feel this is the intent of the "Dupont" rule. I would be expecting a 2 point hit if it were my bike. I too am not a judge, nor am I owner of that machine but I do know that without seeing the score cards or confering with the owner we don't know the exact situation. And that is perhaps why the judges are staying clear of this little debacle. Just my thoughts.
Brian

Bikes are restored to the condition the left the factory in. Not as found.

[bmh]

That's funny Chris, cause I've been noticing more and more bikes at the judging that are not restored at all even though they look brand spankin new. They are recreations of machines that may have never even existed in that form. Of course I'm speaking of the latest craze.... the Bobber. So I guess we can agree by definition that these machines are not restorations, so why are they there? Why are they not disqualified from judging? Yet some would see someone else slammed for restoring a bike to as found condition, including a period Factory re-enamel. That person has preseved history, not created a false one.
Brian

[kval]

bmh
the "bobber" is NOT judged for points, it is eligible for national recognition awards as they show americian motorcycling history.
as for allowing a plus or minus 5 years paint colors, that is not true. a restored bike MUST have only colors for the year of manufacture.
if a bike made it into winners circle before this, there is really nothing we can do about it now, even if we took the 6 point deduction for incorrect color it would not be below the 85 point level to remove it.
we are trying to make it better!
Kevin Valentine