Wrong paint, but still winner circle ?

[Lonnie]

That's a great website, Chris, and I've spent some time on it looking at the photos and order blanks. The 1950 order blanK there does not list the $13.00 colors, meaning that there were two different blanks out there. Perhaps there was an earlier version listing the Burgundy in order to get rid of voluminous quantities of paint - or - perhaps there was a later version that added the color due to popular demand - or - perhaps there was an earlier version that should have not had made it out to the dealers. Is there a way to reference a number on the blank to clarify that point? Ed says I can make a copy of the order blank he has but it is 2-1/2 hours from here and I don't often get up that way. Since I no longer own the bike and the new owner will never have it judged, it is not a big issue to me but may be to someone else on down the line.

Lonnie C. from SC

[Chris Haynes]

That's a great website, Chris, and I've spent some time on it looking at the photos and order blanks. The 1950 order blanK there does not list the $13.00 colors, meaning that there were two different blanks out there. Perhaps there was an earlier version listing the Burgundy in order to get rid of voluminous quantities of paint - or - perhaps there was a later version that added the color due to popular demand - or - perhaps there was an earlier version that should have not had made it out to the dealers. Is there a way to reference a number on the blank to clarify that point? Ed says I can make a copy of the order blank he has but it is 2-1/2 hours from here and I don't often get up that way. Since I no longer own the bike and the new owner will never have it judged, it is not a big issue to me but may be to someone else on down the line.

Lonnie C. from SC

There were certainly different editions of order blanks. In the upper left corner is a number F-404 followed by the last two digits of the year. So 1950 would be F-404-50. Later editions would have a letter following the year. Like F-404-50A, B, C, ETC..
My 1950 is the first of the series F-404-50. Earlier may be different colors. I don't know when the letter suffix was used. Later ones are dated.
Anyone who has order blanks that I don't have I would love to get scan files of them to post on my web site.
The ones I have are; 1919, F-404-33 goldenrod in color, F404-34 salmon in color, F-404-35 Blue, F-404-36 tan, F-404-37 goldenrod, F-404-38 tan, F-404-41 goldenrod, F-404-42 blue, F-404-44 goldenrod, F-404-45 yellow, F-404-46A yellow, F-404-47A blue, F-404-48C goldenrod, F-404-49A yellow, F-404-50 orange, F-404-51A Blue, F-404-51C green, F-404-52A yellow, F-404-52B goldenrod, F-404-53A goldenrod, F-404-54 yellow, F-404-55 dated 2-1-55 yellow, F-404-56 dated 7-25-55 goldenrod, F-404-57 dated 9-1-56 blue, and F-404-57 dated 2-15-57 goldenrod,

[Lonnie]

I doubt I'll see Ed but I know Rick will be at the antique ride at Bat Cave, NC next weekend. I'll talk to him and see what we can work out - I don't know if they have a scanner at the museum.

All their order blanks used to be posted under plexiglass for display but they took them down when they re-arranged the displays so they should be reasonably accessible.

[Chris Haynes]

I doubt I'll see Ed but I know Rick will be at the antique ride at Bat Cave, NC next weekend. I'll talk to him and see what we can work out - I don't know if they have a scanner at the museum.

All their order blanks used to be posted under plexiglass for display but they took them down when they re-arranged the displays so they should be reasonably accessible.

That would greatly be appreciated. I will of course give them scans of whatever they need. But the again you can download them from my web site.

[fabercycle]

Ok, I haven't checked in on this in a while. Thanks for all the input. I'm assuming that VL which was the original topic......must have received its winner's circle, before the paint rule, according to what was said. That, at least makes sense.

[kval]

Fabercycle
the owner of that bike had factory documentation stating that the factory offered previous year colors for that year. so there was no deduction. before the incorrect color rule, a bike not painted colors for that year was disqualified. I thought this was not a good idea , as we would miss seeing alot of very nice bikes, so I pushed and pushed until I got it approved.
the whole idea is to enjoy the bikes and the friends we make along the way.
Kevin

[fabercycle]

Kevin,

That bike wasn't painted a previous year....it was painted a later year...which did not yet exist.

That was my point from the beginning.

How could a 36 VL leave the factory, with a 39 paint job?

I guess the question still stands.

[kval]

fabercycle
my apoligizes, we must be talking about different bikes. not being a Harley guy, those things confuse me. I would like to know the bike you are talking about, so I could check it out.

[Lonnie]

This thread brings up an interesting thought...

One of the pluses of purchasing an AMCA-authenticated Senior or Winners Circle antique motorcycle is the assurance for the prospective purchaser that the bike is very correct, certainly correct in all the big things such as frame, motor, trans, etc., etc., including paint. The judging sheets, which should pass on with the bike, are "gold" in that respect.
And it is evident that there are some bikes out there judged before the current system was devised and the standards tightened.

So imagine how someone would feel to buy such a bike only to find that the bike has the wrong paint! Granted, one should research any item of that value and be fully aware of what is right and what is wrong but the Sr. or WC paperwork is a seal of authenticity of the correctness.

And, as Kevin noted, even accounting for incorrect paint would not on its own pull a bike down out of the WC ranking. And since WC bikes are not fully re-judged, the incorrectness of a part (or rectification of a part for which points were deducted earlier) is not noted.

I've got no solutions, just wanted to note this situation of which I am certain others have considered.

[Chris Haynes]

This thread brings up an interesting thought...

One of the pluses of purchasing an AMCA-authenticated Senior or Winners Circle antique motorcycle is the assurance for the prospective purchaser that the bike is very correct, certainly correct in all the big things such as frame, motor, trans, etc., etc., including paint. The judging sheets, which should pass on with the bike, are "gold" in that respect.
And it is evident that there are some bikes out there judged before the current system was devised and the standards tightened.

So imagine how someone would feel to buy such a bike only to find that the bike has the wrong paint! Granted, one should research any item of that value and be fully aware of what is right and what is wrong but the Sr. or WC paperwork is a seal of authenticity of the correctness.

And, as Kevin noted, even accounting for incorrect paint would not on its own pull a bike down out of the WC ranking. And since WC bikes are not fully re-judged, the incorrectness of a part (or rectification of a part for which points were deducted earlier) is not noted.

I've got no solutions, just wanted to note this situation of which I am certain others have considered.

There is an outrageously bad number job VL in the winners circle. The number boss crudely ground off and 30VL1001 badly stamped on it. I questioned Peter Heintz about disqualifing the machine from judging at Davenport and he said it was not the clubs position to police numbers.
So what happens when this bike is sold to someone not familiar with numbers? If the new owner based his purchase on the AMCA judging award isn't the club taking part in a crime?

[kval]

Chris
NO! we are not taking part in the crime.
we do not ask for proof of ownership to judge a bike. it is not our job to check every title to see who is the owner, and if someone restamped a case, we just look to see if the numbers would have existed in that production run(example: 49FL1122334455) we would know that they never produced that many that year, but would only deduct points for bad restamp

[kval]

There is an outrageously bad number job VL in the winners circle. The number boss crudely ground off and 30VL1001 badly stamped on it. I questioned Peter Heintz about disqualifing the machine from judging at Davenport and he said it was not the clubs position to police numbers.
So what happens when this bike is sold to someone not familiar with numbers? If the new owner based his purchase on the AMCA judging award isn't the club taking part in a crime?

Chris
the bike number you quoted does not exist in the records as ever being judged.
was this just an example?

[Chris Haynes]

Chris
the bike number you quoted does not exist in the records as ever being judged.
was this just an example?

I don't remember if it was V or VL but it was a 1930 and number 1000 or 1001. Which made the number job even more obvious as the early 1930's had small diameter flywheels/cases and smaller loop frame than the late 1930 did. This bike had the large flywheel cases and bigger loop frame.

[pete reeves]

I was part of the team that judged the bike Chris is talking about.
All of the judging team agreed that the engine number was bogus and wanted to disqualify the bike, this was brought to the attention of the head judge and too our surprise he told us that this was not possible due to the reasons Chris has given. None of the judges agreed with this decision but after some heated debate we were told that we could put a note on the judging sheet and make a deduction for defects in the number.
I have judged at least 2 other bikes with questionable numbers and have noted this on the judging sheet and made deductions.
I am not comfortable with this policy and feel that any machine that has obvious bogus numbers or an altered number boss should be disqualified.
I don’t see this as policing; the rules say we should disqualify a bike because it has a small casting on the frame that is not correct,makeing the frame the wrong year. Surely we should disqualify a bike that has had its identity altered

I have been trying to get this policy reversed with out success. The same reasons given as in the case of the 30 VL.

My view is that a policy as important as this with wide reaching implications needs further discussion amongst the membership and possibly the board should discuss this and give us a final ruling.

Pete Reeves AMCA 860

[Chris Haynes]

Thank you Pete.