Knucklehead serial number

[Speeding Big Twin]

You can always see good examples of numbers on my web site.

Earlier in this thread you referred to numbers on race bikes but I told you what you described doesn’t help in this situation. And neither will the case numbers on your website. Yes some are good but according to you all the examples that are not good are identified as such. But that wasn’t true ten years ago and it still isn’t true today. Remember in 2015 you thought 53FL1385 and 67FLH8+++ were good but I disagreed. You then changed your mind about both those SNs and you changed their status on VAM. In other words you had agreed with my findings. In fact you even thanked me for my input. Remember?

But you didn’t change the status of four other SNs I commented on in 2015 even though I provided reasons why they did not appear consistent with factory stamping. And there are several other alleged case numbers on your site that also need to be addressed. If you want to go through them you could start a new thread.
Eric

[Chris Haynes]

You can always see good examples of numbers on my web site. https://vintageamericanmotorcycles.com/v/Numbers/

[Speeding Big Twin]

Two days ago I received a second response to the email I sent the judging board on 17 January. It was from an AMCA officer but he didn’t address my questions about 42, 43 and 47. Instead he included a letter which was written by an AMCA director. Here is said letter but with the author’s name omitted.



'As a representative of the AMCA Judging Board I would like to thank you for your interest in the policies and procedures involved with the verification of 1930s-1940s Harley Davidson motor VINs. Your interest appears to be specifically in the “Knucklehead” model.

The AMCA Judging Board is presently reviewing our policies and procedures pertaining to factory VINs for all makes and models eligible for AMCA Judging from 1990 and older. This review will include solicitation of professional restorers, collectors, senior judges, and interested members for their opinions and suggestions on this matter.

At this time the Judging Board will address Pending Disqualifications on an individual basis, with the owner/member, as they occur.

I would like to invite you to submit your suggestions to the Judging Board, via the same email you just used. When a consensus is reached the Judging Board will vote on any changes to current policy and publish the results on the AMCA Website.

Once again, thank you for your continuing interest in the AMCA'



Below is the email I sent a short while ago.
Eric


'Thanks for the response but the letter contains no answers to questions I asked the judging board regarding 42, 43 and 47. My interest isn’t specifically in Knuckleheads but I used a 42 as an example because I wanted to know what would happen if at an AMCA national meet there was a disagreement about the authenticity of the SN of such a bike.

As for suggestions, I may have a few although some may already be in place but I won’t know that until the board answers my questions from the email I sent in January. Why can’t the judging board answer those questions?

I realise the AMCA doesn’t like to make details public regarding H-D SN characters but I think that is a problem. And I fail to see what harm could be caused by answering the following: would the evidence submitted to the board by the judge consist of photos only or would there be H-D factory paperwork submitted regarding the types of stamps used for H-D SNs? Thank you.'

[Speeding Big Twin]

Eric I personally believe that the factory does not have any supporting paperwork pertaining to serial numbers fonts and probably never has had. Fonts were probably a non-issue with them.

Jerry

Thanks, Jerry. I too believe the factory does not have any supporting paperwork pertaining to SN fonts from the 40s. And I doubt that any AMCA judge has any either. And if so, what evidence does a judge submit to the board after a disagreement occurs between said judge and the owner? It seems to me the only evidence the judge could submit would be photos of SNs that he thinks are consistent with factory stamping. But why does he think that? What is his opinion based on? Where is his info from? Can he go into detail about every character in the SN?

Were SN fonts a non-issue with the factory? I doubt that anyone knows for certain but I imagine there may have been a reason for at least some changes? For example and as you’d know, at least two 4s for SNs of 43 general production models. But why the change? I don’t know. If it was worn out it could have been replaced with another 4 of the same type but it wasn’t. Instead it was replaced with a different style. I wonder if judges know exactly when the change occurred, not only for Knuckles but also Flatheads.

For 47 the 4 seems to remain unchanged during the entire model year but certain other stamps were replaced with different types. Again I wonder if judges know exactly when the changes occurred. And while I’m on 47, one of the changes involved the number 1, with its top serif going from horizontal to about forty-five degrees late during that model year and not when both Palmer’s 32–52 military books say it did. I told Bruce about that change via email in 2012. He agreed with me and the correction should have appeared in his second 32–52 book (published 2015) but it didn’t.

As for the 50s and 60s, no sign yet of the factory having supporting paperwork pertaining to SN characters and I doubt that any AMCA judge has anything either.

For 70–80 VINs there is Service Bulletin M-828 and it shows some, not all, Posident characters which of course means the bulletin is partly misleading. And the bulletin is also misleading in certain other ways, not only as far as characters for engine VINs are concerned but also with regard to characters for frame VINs.
Eric

[Jerry Wieland]

Steve, thanks for the PM and I replied a short time ago.
Or would there be H-D factory paperwork submitted regarding the types of stamps used for 42 SNs? I.
Eric

Eric I personally believe that the factory does not have any supporting paperwork pertaining to serial numbers fonts and probably never has had. Fonts were probably a non-issue with them.

Jerry

[otis71]

Isn’t sharing information the reason for our organization? The deceitful few will have what they need but the rest of will be caught with our pants down. Shaking my head so hard my neck hurts.

[Speeding Big Twin]

Steve, thanks for the PM and I replied a short time ago.

Regarding SN and BN info being made public, are you completely against it these days? I ask because several years ago I bought the revised fourth edition of your book on the 30–36 V-series. As you’d know, page 13 mentions engine numbering and includes, but is not restricted to, eight typed examples of SNs which should be OK and six typed examples which would be wrong.
Page 16 contains photos of good SNs for 30, 32, 33, 34, 35 and 36. And photos of bad SNs for 31 and 36.
Page 17 says note the distinctive style of the numbers and the loss of serifs on the V after 1934.

No personal offence meant but I’d describe all that info as public.

I realise it’s not an easy subject to address and Bruce Palmer and I discussed it via email in 2012 as he was working on his 37–64 SE. Bruce said he had expanded SN and BN font info but he was concerned about exposing too much.

I replied, saying I understood his concerns about exposing too much info. I also said on one hand I like to get some details out there for the good guys and I do a bit of that on the forums but on the other hand there may be some bad guys looking for such info. It’s a tricky situation and I’ve wondered about it from time to time but I still figure it’s better to provide the info so the good guys know what they have, or what they are looking at when buying cases or whole bikes.

Getting back to the reply I received from the board, not only did it avoid my questions about 42, 43 and 47 but it also failed to address my questions about what evidence the judge(s) would submit. Would the alleged evidence consist of photos only? Or would there be H-D factory paperwork submitted regarding the types of stamps used for 42 SNs? I don’t know because the response didn’t even address those two questions. I fail to see what harm would be caused if those two questions were answered, but as I mentioned earlier, to me it looked like a standard reply and that doesn’t help anyone.
Eric

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear Eric, I'll send you the details of the two WA Harley judges.You're outside the judging system at the moment and asking for hard-won insider expertise to be made public. As advised earlier, your best move should be to join the judging community by signing up at a National Meet.

[Speeding Big Twin]

Dear Eric, knucklehead frames are being reproduced for each year, crankcases are being recast, and number stamps are for sale because these bikes are being actively faked for the money. It seems entirely reasonable to me that the AMCA should withhold hard-won information that might help the fakers. Why not share your information with the Judging Board and contact those AMCA Harley judges in Western Australia?

I’d be happy to share my info with the board but the board is reluctant to share anything with me. As you saw above, in the response I received from the board there was not one word about 42, 43 and/or 47. In fact to me it looks like a standard reply. And I imagine the same thing would happen if I ask the board about 40, 64, 66 and/or 70–80.

If the judges withhold their info then their examples and opinions are not subject to scrutiny by others, as I mentioned above. And how do we know the judges, including the board, know if their info is correct in the first place? I’ve seen a few AMCA judges comment about certain SNs on this forum and on other internet sites but I’ve never witnessed any of them go into much detail. A while ago, regarding an alleged 43, a judge said the numbers look good. But others disagreed and the judge went silent and I’ve seen this sort of thing happen on other occasions, before and since. I’ve also seen judges, on separate occasions, say fake but when others disagreed the judges changed their minds completely.

As for the two judges in West Aust, I don’t know who they are. Can you send me their contact details via PM please. Thanks.
Eric

[Speeding Big Twin]

I have seen factory pictures of race bikes built and numbers stamped in the race dept. A wide variety of mismatched font.

A lot of us have seen what you describe but that doesn’t help in this situation. You’re an AMCA judge so what’s your response to my first post which was about a 42 Knuckle SN? A judge says he doesn’t like the look of the SN but he doesn’t say why. The owner disagrees and tells the judge that all the SN characters appear normal for a 42 Knuckle and he even mentions one or more features about each of them. The owner also tells the judge certain things about the SN boss and that they are not uncommon for 42 and he shows the judge photos of these things on the SN bosses of two other 42 Knuckles.

But what happens next? If the judge examines the two photos he’ll see the abovementioned certain things about the SN boss. Does he know they are not uncommon for 42? Also in those photos he’ll see a few SN characters such as the 4 and 2. Does he know they appear consistent with factory stamping and that they appear the same as the 4 and 2 on the bike he just examined at the meet? If so, why didn’t he like the look of the owner’s SN? If he thinks either or both of those characters don’t look the same then why can’t he explain why, and in detail, to the owner? And the same thing goes for the rest of the SN characters. If he doesn’t like the look of them either then why can’t he explain why, and in detail, to the owner? And what evidence does the judge have to support his opinion?
Eric

[Steve Slocombe]

True Chris, I had a 60 KR with the long tail on the R character. It looks like the Race Department used a different set of stamps, but the manufacturing department was pretty consistent.

[Chris Haynes]

I have seen factory pictures of race bikes built and numbers stamped in the race dept. A wide variety of mismatched font.

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear Eric, knucklehead frames are being reproduced for each year, crankcases are being recast, and number stamps are for sale because these bikes are being actively faked for the money. It seems entirely reasonable to me that the AMCA should withhold hard-won information that might help the fakers. Why not share your information with the Judging Board and contact those AMCA Harley judges in Western Australia?

[Speeding Big Twin]

I’ve ridden a Harley from here to the east coast and back more than once, and all over the rest of mainland Australia too, so getting to Bulli wouldn’t be a problem but why would an AMCA member such as myself have to go to such lengths just to see what the club has as far as H-D SN info is concerned?

I wouldn't expect these details of Harley serial numbers to be made public.

That’s similar to what I ran up against several years ago. I’d heard about a chart used by judges and it was said to contain pictures of H-D SNs. I asked the AMCA if a copy was available to members and the response in part was that the club used a certain data base to validate SNs on an individual basis as bikes were entered for judging but the examples were not published for security reasons because: ‘… there are always people that would misuse this information to enhance the value of a particular machine.’

I replied, saying in part that I was interested in viewing the AMCA H-D SN chart to compare it with my findings and also in the hope that I may increase my own knowledge on the subject. I also asked if the club may reconsider its stand on this but I received no response.

One of the problems with judges keeping all that info to themselves is that their examples and opinions are not subject to scrutiny by others.

BTW, in full below is the reply I received to the email I sent to the Judging Board yesterday. As you can see, it contains no answers to questions I asked the board regarding 42, 43 and 47.
Eric


‘Thank you for contacting the AMCA Judging Board.

We invite all members to submit their suggestions for enhancing the judging process, give feedback on our existing programs, or propose new ideas to improve the AMCA Judging Program. Once received, the Judging Board will record all emails, examine them thoroughly, and respond accordingly.

The AMCA Judging Board meets frequently and will add your email to the agenda for the next meeting. Should the Judging Board members have any questions, they will contact you for clarification. Thank you!

Please send all correspondence directly to: JudgingBoard@antiquemotorcycle.org

Enjoy today!
AMCA Judging Board’

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear Eric, I've judged with two of your Western Australia members in the USA, and I know they judge at Bulli, so signing up as a judge is not impossible. I wouldn't expect these details of Harley serial numbers to be made public. For the European Chapter we have a database of numbers from 1910 up but have no plans to publish it.