Knucklehead serial number

[Speeding Big Twin]

On 28 May I again emailed the AMCA officer I referred to above and here’s what I said: ‘It’s more than ten weeks since my first reply to your email but I’ve heard nothing further so I’m still wondering what happens after an AMCA national meet if there was a disagreement about the authenticity of the SN of a bike such as a 42 Knuckle that was examined at said meet. What evidence would the judge submit to the Judging Board? Would that evidence consist of photos only or does the AMCA have H-D factory paperwork regarding the types of stamps used for 42 SNs?

Apparently the Board meets frequently but what does that mean? When was the last time the Board met and have my questions been raised at such a meeting? And if so, what was the outcome? Surely no harm could be caused by answering my questions about what evidence a judge would submit to the Judging Board. Thank you.’



And here’s the response from that AMCA officer: ‘As per the first reply. We use the input of others that are well versed in the model that is being questioned whatever the bike may be. If your bike goes against the consensus it is the owners responsibility to provide the documentation for the appeal. if you can not it will likely be disqualified from the judging process. Hope this helps.’



On 30 May I tried again: ‘Thanks for the response but no it does not help, partly because you mention the input of others but without saying exactly what that means.
In January I started a thread on the AMCA forum because I had questions about what happens after an AMCA national meet if there was a disagreement about the authenticity of the SN of a bike such as a 42 Knuckle. Later in that thread it was suggested I contact the Judging Board but doing so has achieved nothing yet and I’m wondering why that is.

You also mentioned that if the bike goes against the consensus it is the owner’s responsibility to provide the documentation for the appeal. However, if the owner has to take on this responsibility then the Board is saying the judge may have been wrong. But how could that be? What’s the point of an AMCA judge examining the SN of a 42 Knuckle if he doesn’t know what he’s looking at and if he doesn’t know what to look for?

Also on this particular occasion what does documentation mean? Do you mean H-D factory paperwork demonstrating the types of stamps? Or do you mean photos of 42 SNs that appear consistent with factory stamping? I doubt the owner would have the former and I doubt the AMCA has any such paperwork either because if they did then surely judges could tell the difference between an authentic SN and a fake one? Does the AMCA have any such paperwork? Or not? And if not then what evidence does the judge submit to the Board? Photos only?’



No response yet to the email I sent on 30 May so I’m still wondering what evidence a judge would submit. And I’m still wondering why nobody can tell me.

Anybody been in front of an AMCA Judging Board?
Eric

[Speeding Big Twin]

The more we read the more we learn, then separate the wheat from the chaff.

The more we read the more we learn? That depends on who wrote what we read. From one alleged author or another I’ve read plenty about H-D numbering but a lot of it was wrong. And some of it was incorrect in the extreme.

Separate the wheat from the chaff? Many people, including you, have recommended VAM because they thought all case numbers there were in their proper piles. But because you’re now saying separate the wheat from the chaff it sounds like you may be changing your mind? If so, perhaps you could start a new thread about case numbers at VAM? Why a new thread? Because as well as the certain five SNs I keep mentioning, there are others to be addressed and the discussion may go on for some time. Also a new thread may be easier to find in future for anyone looking for info about those case numbers. Thanks.
Eric

[KNUCK]

It was a rather off the cuff remark, keep your powder dry Eric. The more we read the more we learn, then separate the wheat from the chaff.

[Speeding Big Twin]

Thanks to the person who liked my post #44 but I don’t know who you are yet because your name isn’t shown. In the past I’ve received a few notifications via emails which let me know who liked posts of mine but not anymore. And today via my message centre there are notifications about people liking posts of mine in two threads but no names.




Admins/Moderators, why aren’t the names of people who like a post included at the bottom of the post? That’s what happens on some of the other forums where I’m a member so why can’t it happen on this forum? Can this situation be addressed please so we all know who liked a post. Thank you.
Eric

[Speeding Big Twin]

Some of my favorite serial numbers seen on a case is the one with a curved back 6 and a straight back b within the same sequence, and another one where the whole number is lined out and a new number stamped below it. Just saying that the Company and dealers did a lot of strange things. If I may borrow from the Pope who said, "who are we to judge"

Who are we to judge? In March you strongly urged any prospective Knuckle/Pan buyer to visit VAM. And that is where case numbers had been judged by one person or another involved with that site which is why some examples are classified in a certain way while others are not. You also said: ‘Or anybody who wants to learn, school is in session.’
But now you’re saying who are we to judge?

When that alleged school is in session, apparently people who want to learn are supposed to accept all case numbers there are good unless the site says otherwise. But I disagree. And with good reason, as I’ve indicated many times over the years.

As for lined-out numbers, we know the factory did that to a lot of VINs in the 70s and I have a copy of a letter Pete Simet from H-D sent to the owner of a certain XLCR to explain it. We also know about a few other things the factory did in the 70s because they’re addressed in a certain Service Letter and a certain Service Bulletin.

But at VAM I see no explanation about 39EL1414, 41FL3553, 47EL13649, 50FL11328 and 52FL2330 even though they do not look consistent with factory stamping. As I mentioned above, 39EL1414 may have been a replacement case stamped by a dealer who used H-D stamps but some of them such as the 3 were from earlier times and not the normal types for a 39 model. But IF that SN, and the other four SNs, are all strange things done at the factory then why are they not accompanied by evidence which explains what happened?
Eric

[KNUCK]

Some of my favorite serial numbers seen on a case is the one with a curved back 6 and a straight back b within the same sequence, and another one where the whole number is lined out and a new number stamped below it. Just saying that the Company and dealers did a lot of strange things. If I may borrow from the Pope who said, "who are we to judge"

[Speeding Big Twin]

I hear you but point to a better site for info and photos ..................................

If you’re referring to H-D SNs, VINs and/or BNs I wouldn’t point to any site I’ve seen because they all contain some bad info. And that includes VAM and I’ve been saying so for many years. For example imagine a newcomer gets pointed to that site because he/she wants to know what a 39 SN looks like. They notice 39EL1414 has a sans serif 3 but in 39G+0+9 and 39U34++ the 3s are seriffed yet all three SNs are alleged to be good because the site does not indicate otherwise. Will said newcomer conclude that for 1939 models the factory used a sans serif 3 for Knuckleheads but a seriffed 3 for Flatheads?

Why is 39EL1414 alleged to be good when it isn’t consistent with factory stamping for 39? To me it looks like it may have been a replacement case stamped by a dealer who used H-D stamps but some of them such as the 3 were from earlier times and not the normal types for a 39 model.

Also what about 41FL3553, 47EL13649, 50FL11328 and 52FL2330. All four of those SNs are alleged to be good because that site does not say otherwise. But none of those four SNs looks consistent with factory stamping.
Eric

[KNUCK]

I hear you but point to a better site for info and photos ..................................

[Speeding Big Twin]

I strongly urge any prospective Knuckle/Pan buyer to visit Chris Haynes website. Or anybody who wants to learn, school is in session.

KNUCK, please read my previous post.
Eric

[KNUCK]

I think I'm in the same camp with Steve. Why give the faker any help, let everyone do their own homework and if an issue comes up sort it out then. The AMCA is sharing the fact that you should all do your research or else there may be a little pain some day.
I strongly urge any prospective Knuckle/Pan buyer to visit Chris Haynes website. Or anybody who wants to learn, school is in session.

[duffeycycles]

These 2 digit Line bore are post production, made after the last Knucks rolled off the assembly line. All of the NOS WLA cases that I saw had full line bore #. Maybe 2 digit was post production only. Date codes are inside the cases

IMG_8204 (2).JPG

DSC_0037.JPG

[Kozy]

If you added a picture I sure don't see it?

Pretty common to just have two digits on a belly with matched cases. The 47 is a fluke, I've had them with numbers in the 60s and 70s before on '40s era cases.

The pictures appear on my screen and apparently Chris'. I uploaded them from files saved on my PC.

[Chris Haynes]

I have a question about the replacement cases not having belly nos. stamped on them. I have a set of U cases with an unstamped vin pad but there are align bore belly numbers stamped. Belly nos. are 47 and date codes are also 47. Do these belly nos. look factory stamped.?

They look perfect to me. I have had several sets with no serial number with full line bore numbers on them.

[Rubone]

I have a question about the replacement cases not having belly nos. stamped on them. I have a set of U cases with an unstamped vin pad but there are align bore belly numbers stamped. Belly nos. are 47 and date codes are also 47. Do these belly nos. look factory stamped.?

If you added a picture I sure don't see it?

Pretty common to just have two digits on a belly with matched cases. The 47 is a fluke, I've had them with numbers in the 60s and 70s before on '40s era cases.

[Kozy]

I have a question about the replacement cases not having belly nos. stamped on them. I have a set of U cases with an unstamped vin pad but there are align bore belly numbers stamped. Belly nos. are 47 and date codes are also 47. Do these belly nos. look factory stamped.?