Knucklehead serial number

[Speeding Big Twin]

Thanks, Steve. I don’t know who the members are of any recent Judging Board(s) but I’d appreciate their responses to my above questions regarding 42, 43 and 47, especially if one or more of those members is a Marque Specialist Judge.

I’d also like to hear from MSJs regarding the types of 4s used on certain models for 40, 64, 66 and 70–80.
Eric

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear Eric, the Judging Board is run by two AMCA Main Board Directors and you can contact them through judgingboard@antiquemotorcycle.org. The easiest way to get access to the detailed information you are looking for is to sign up as a Harley judge at a National Meet.

[Speeding Big Twin]

Thanks, Steve. I’m in Western Australia so I don’t think I’ll be signing up as a Harley judge at a National Meet anytime soon.

I’ll contact the Judging Board today.
Eric

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear Eric, I've judged with two of your Western Australia members in the USA, and I know they judge at Bulli, so signing up as a judge is not impossible. I wouldn't expect these details of Harley serial numbers to be made public. For the European Chapter we have a database of numbers from 1910 up but have no plans to publish it.

[Speeding Big Twin]

I’ve ridden a Harley from here to the east coast and back more than once, and all over the rest of mainland Australia too, so getting to Bulli wouldn’t be a problem but why would an AMCA member such as myself have to go to such lengths just to see what the club has as far as H-D SN info is concerned?

I wouldn't expect these details of Harley serial numbers to be made public.

That’s similar to what I ran up against several years ago. I’d heard about a chart used by judges and it was said to contain pictures of H-D SNs. I asked the AMCA if a copy was available to members and the response in part was that the club used a certain data base to validate SNs on an individual basis as bikes were entered for judging but the examples were not published for security reasons because: ‘… there are always people that would misuse this information to enhance the value of a particular machine.’

I replied, saying in part that I was interested in viewing the AMCA H-D SN chart to compare it with my findings and also in the hope that I may increase my own knowledge on the subject. I also asked if the club may reconsider its stand on this but I received no response.

One of the problems with judges keeping all that info to themselves is that their examples and opinions are not subject to scrutiny by others.

BTW, in full below is the reply I received to the email I sent to the Judging Board yesterday. As you can see, it contains no answers to questions I asked the board regarding 42, 43 and 47.
Eric


‘Thank you for contacting the AMCA Judging Board.

We invite all members to submit their suggestions for enhancing the judging process, give feedback on our existing programs, or propose new ideas to improve the AMCA Judging Program. Once received, the Judging Board will record all emails, examine them thoroughly, and respond accordingly.

The AMCA Judging Board meets frequently and will add your email to the agenda for the next meeting. Should the Judging Board members have any questions, they will contact you for clarification. Thank you!

Please send all correspondence directly to: JudgingBoard@antiquemotorcycle.org

Enjoy today!
AMCA Judging Board’

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear Eric, knucklehead frames are being reproduced for each year, crankcases are being recast, and number stamps are for sale because these bikes are being actively faked for the money. It seems entirely reasonable to me that the AMCA should withhold hard-won information that might help the fakers. Why not share your information with the Judging Board and contact those AMCA Harley judges in Western Australia?

[Chris Haynes]

I have seen factory pictures of race bikes built and numbers stamped in the race dept. A wide variety of mismatched font.

[Steve Slocombe]

True Chris, I had a 60 KR with the long tail on the R character. It looks like the Race Department used a different set of stamps, but the manufacturing department was pretty consistent.

[Speeding Big Twin]

I have seen factory pictures of race bikes built and numbers stamped in the race dept. A wide variety of mismatched font.

A lot of us have seen what you describe but that doesn’t help in this situation. You’re an AMCA judge so what’s your response to my first post which was about a 42 Knuckle SN? A judge says he doesn’t like the look of the SN but he doesn’t say why. The owner disagrees and tells the judge that all the SN characters appear normal for a 42 Knuckle and he even mentions one or more features about each of them. The owner also tells the judge certain things about the SN boss and that they are not uncommon for 42 and he shows the judge photos of these things on the SN bosses of two other 42 Knuckles.

But what happens next? If the judge examines the two photos he’ll see the abovementioned certain things about the SN boss. Does he know they are not uncommon for 42? Also in those photos he’ll see a few SN characters such as the 4 and 2. Does he know they appear consistent with factory stamping and that they appear the same as the 4 and 2 on the bike he just examined at the meet? If so, why didn’t he like the look of the owner’s SN? If he thinks either or both of those characters don’t look the same then why can’t he explain why, and in detail, to the owner? And the same thing goes for the rest of the SN characters. If he doesn’t like the look of them either then why can’t he explain why, and in detail, to the owner? And what evidence does the judge have to support his opinion?
Eric

[Speeding Big Twin]

Dear Eric, knucklehead frames are being reproduced for each year, crankcases are being recast, and number stamps are for sale because these bikes are being actively faked for the money. It seems entirely reasonable to me that the AMCA should withhold hard-won information that might help the fakers. Why not share your information with the Judging Board and contact those AMCA Harley judges in Western Australia?

I’d be happy to share my info with the board but the board is reluctant to share anything with me. As you saw above, in the response I received from the board there was not one word about 42, 43 and/or 47. In fact to me it looks like a standard reply. And I imagine the same thing would happen if I ask the board about 40, 64, 66 and/or 70–80.

If the judges withhold their info then their examples and opinions are not subject to scrutiny by others, as I mentioned above. And how do we know the judges, including the board, know if their info is correct in the first place? I’ve seen a few AMCA judges comment about certain SNs on this forum and on other internet sites but I’ve never witnessed any of them go into much detail. A while ago, regarding an alleged 43, a judge said the numbers look good. But others disagreed and the judge went silent and I’ve seen this sort of thing happen on other occasions, before and since. I’ve also seen judges, on separate occasions, say fake but when others disagreed the judges changed their minds completely.

As for the two judges in West Aust, I don’t know who they are. Can you send me their contact details via PM please. Thanks.
Eric

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear Eric, I'll send you the details of the two WA Harley judges.You're outside the judging system at the moment and asking for hard-won insider expertise to be made public. As advised earlier, your best move should be to join the judging community by signing up at a National Meet.

[Speeding Big Twin]

Steve, thanks for the PM and I replied a short time ago.

Regarding SN and BN info being made public, are you completely against it these days? I ask because several years ago I bought the revised fourth edition of your book on the 30–36 V-series. As you’d know, page 13 mentions engine numbering and includes, but is not restricted to, eight typed examples of SNs which should be OK and six typed examples which would be wrong.
Page 16 contains photos of good SNs for 30, 32, 33, 34, 35 and 36. And photos of bad SNs for 31 and 36.
Page 17 says note the distinctive style of the numbers and the loss of serifs on the V after 1934.

No personal offence meant but I’d describe all that info as public.

I realise it’s not an easy subject to address and Bruce Palmer and I discussed it via email in 2012 as he was working on his 37–64 SE. Bruce said he had expanded SN and BN font info but he was concerned about exposing too much.

I replied, saying I understood his concerns about exposing too much info. I also said on one hand I like to get some details out there for the good guys and I do a bit of that on the forums but on the other hand there may be some bad guys looking for such info. It’s a tricky situation and I’ve wondered about it from time to time but I still figure it’s better to provide the info so the good guys know what they have, or what they are looking at when buying cases or whole bikes.

Getting back to the reply I received from the board, not only did it avoid my questions about 42, 43 and 47 but it also failed to address my questions about what evidence the judge(s) would submit. Would the alleged evidence consist of photos only? Or would there be H-D factory paperwork submitted regarding the types of stamps used for 42 SNs? I don’t know because the response didn’t even address those two questions. I fail to see what harm would be caused if those two questions were answered, but as I mentioned earlier, to me it looked like a standard reply and that doesn’t help anyone.
Eric

[otis71]

Isn’t sharing information the reason for our organization? The deceitful few will have what they need but the rest of will be caught with our pants down. Shaking my head so hard my neck hurts.

[Jerry Wieland]

Steve, thanks for the PM and I replied a short time ago.
Or would there be H-D factory paperwork submitted regarding the types of stamps used for 42 SNs? I.
Eric

Eric I personally believe that the factory does not have any supporting paperwork pertaining to serial numbers fonts and probably never has had. Fonts were probably a non-issue with them.

Jerry