Powerplus or Bust, Eh?

[Shaky Jake]

By the way Gene, I heard that in 2014, the year that Hans Coertse won, he ran straight 2-stroke oil in the crankcase of his Indian Scout. Is that true?




Kevin

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[Shaky Jake]

Thanks for that procedure Gene. I couldn't have said it better myself.




Kevin

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[BoschZEV]

Bosch ZEV, Shaky Jake and who ever else is interested:...

I don't want to hijack Kevin's thread so I'll just say thanks very much for your detailed post.

[gharper]

Bosch ZEV, Shaky Jake and who ever else is interested:

Maintaining the correct amount of oil in the crankcase is of course very important! Must have enough to lubricate everything, but not too much because then the engine will smoke, puke and overheat. Hans Coertse and I had a long discussion about this subject when he was here earlier this summer and being the great engineer he is, he has a very methodical approach to the problem. I worked through this myself and feel I have my 24 Chief dialed in pretty well. The key is to be consistent in your testing and only adjust one thing at a time, good advice for solving any problem. Here is the recipe for success:

1. Disconnect the oil line from the hand oil pump and measure the discharge volume from one full stroke of the pump. Now is also a good time to see if the check valve in the hand oil pump is leaking by. Put a drain cup under the pump and see if it drips. If so, FIX IT!! Should be no leaking at all! Reconnect the line.

2. Fill the crankcase as described in the operators manual. For you early guys, that may be to the middle of the sight glass, or the book may say put in 2, or 3 pump fulls with the hand oil pump. For later engines, Indian had 2 drain plugs on the left side of the crankcase, one complete drain, the other a bit higher and this was the correct level plug. Harley and Excelsior only had one drain plug, so follow the recommendation from the book as to how many pump strokes of the hand pump to use to get the right amount of oil in the engine.

3. Let this sit for a bit so all the oil gets to the bottom. All the oil has to drain out of the feed line from the hand oil pump and without an air vent at the top, it takes a while to drain all the oil.

4. Drain the crankcase completely, takes some time when it's cold, but this is important to know. Measure this amount of oil. From this number and the number from step one, you now know how many strokes of the pump it will take to replenish the oil to the correct level when the crankcase is empty.

5. Refill the crankcase to the proper level.

Now the fun begins!

6. Ride a prescribed route, one that can be repeated exactly, preferably one with slow, fast, flat and hilly riding, at least 20 or so miles. I used a 41 mile loop with city riding, flat highway and steep mountain grades. You flatlanders may be SOL on the hills! DO NOT USE THE HAND OIL PUMP!!!! Unless of course you feel the engine sticking.......that ubiquitous statement of mystery as to when to use the pump.

7. Immediately upon your return, drain the entire crankcase. Even though the oil is hot, give it plenty of time to drain all the oil. Measure this amount of oil carefully. Once it is drained, refill to the same level as in step # 5. I always do this immediately after draining to be sure it doesn't get overlooked, or done twice.

8. The goal is to return home with the exact same amount of oil in the crankcase as when you left. However, that NEVER seems to happen! Oil consumption varies considerably with speed, terrain, temperature and oil type.

9. So, if you have too much oil after draining, then first be absolutely sure there are no unintended oil leaks into the engine. The areas to look at are the check valve in the hand oil pump and the oil feed to the mechanical oil pump. Often the oil pump wears internally and oil will just leak past the little plunger piston into the engine, or some other path through the oil pump into the engine. A good way to test these items is to isolate them overnight and let them sit with a drain pan underneath. Correct any leaks you can find here. If you are sure there is not significant leaking past the oil pump check valves or through the body, then adjust the oil pump to reduce the discharge rate. Look in the operators manual for specifics.

10. Repeat the exact same route again and remeasure the volume of oil in the engine. Continue adjusting the oil pump until you can get as close as possible to the same amount of oil after a ride as before. This takes a lot of time and patience!

I've discovered that my chief takes 2 1/2 oz of oil to just drip out the overflow plug hole. This is conveniently 2 1/2 strokes of the hand pump. After riding, 20, 30, even 50 miles, there seems to be about 2 oz remaining in the crankcase. If I'm pulling long grades or running at high speeds for a while, I always think back to the manual which states that under these conditions, use the hand oil pump and give the engine a shot of extra oil now and then. If I do that, the oil level still remains about the same. So, that tells me that if I get a bit too much oil in the crankcase, it works itself out pretty quickly, by burning or blowing it out the breather. Either that or I'm just lucky and use the hand oil pump at the exact right time. I'm betting on the former.... If I run a hard 50 + miles and never touch the hand pump, I will have a bit less than 2 oz in the case. Because my motor is very tight (leak wise) and I'm running oil control rings, I will be changing the oil in my engine at every gas stop. I rigged up a set of tiny petcocks so I can drain the entire case or drain off excess oil or check for proper fill level very quickly.

Oil drain valves.jpg

Be patient and consistent and eventually you will get it right!

Gene Harper, Cannonball #31

[Shaky Jake]

I had a lot of valve problems in 2016. Specifically sticky valve stems, and the rear exhaust valve kept burning the seat. I made two changed this time, I loosened up the clearances in the valve guides, and I had new valve seats pressed in. I'm kind of picky about valve seats because it's something I used to do everyday, so I re-cut them myself after the seats were in. I like to use Neway cutters rather than stones because I get nice sharp lines, accurate angles, and a good finish. I've been using them since the 1970's.










I made this little decoration from a scrap of copper I had. I'm anxious for it to turn green, maybe I'll throw some vinager on it or something.









Kevin

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[Shaky Jake]

Someone on the other forum brought up the exhaust, so I'll skip ahead to the muffler. When I was mounting it I noticed that the rivets holding the front mounting bracket on were loose, and in fact the rivets were nearly worn away from movement. The muffler is made from three main sections that are held together by a long bolt through the middle, in the axial direction. The front end, at the top of the picture, is the inlet chamber where the pipes slip in. It has the front mounting bracket riveted to it, and a little skid plate underneath. The middle section is basically a squashed piece of tin pipe, and the rear plate has the exhaust pipe swedged to it and it has an extra port that can be opened or closed for quite or fast running. Here's a picture:







You'll notice that the whole thing has been nicely preserved by a baked on layer of transmission oil. These are the rivets that needed to be replaced:








This picture is looking into the inlet chamber. You would be able to see the other end of the rivets if they weren't covered in that heavy layer of spooge.








This is the bolt that runs through the middle. It's about twice it's normal diameter due to the heavy layer of carbon that I had to knock off.








Here are the new rivets after I installed them:








After that, all I had to do was assemble and mount it.


Kevin

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[Shaky Jake]

Funny you should ask, but I know someone who has two in his lab. So, what's needed is for someone to take the time to hone and to lap a pair of bushes as equivalently as possible. I can personally guarantee that I would be able to convince that university person to section the bushes and examine them for evidence of embedded abrasive. However, not that it matters, but since 500 grit is 14 microns for this he would use an optical metallurgical microscope to generate the metallographs since its resolution is more than adequate at ~0.5 microns.

It depends on your definition of "ready"...

I've put ~100 miles on it so far in a few runs where several issues were revealed and dealt with. I also learned the symptoms of gross over-oiling on the first total-loss motorcycle I've ever owned, and learned how not to do that again (I hope...). The last issue I'm currently aware of is too much oil is getting past what someone 90 years ago considered to be an oil "seal." Unless the UPS driver delivers the package to the wrong address (which has happened before), later today I'll have the lip seal that barely fits in the available space for a seal holder I'll machine today. Fingers crossed, an uneventful test ride will take place tomorrow, in which case the stress level will drop to 2 from the current Defcon 1.

Lets put the microscope thing on the list for after the Cannonball. I love that kind of stuff. Science is cool.

I'm with you on the stress level. And I'll tell that it took me about three 300 mile days in 2016 to get my oiler adjusted properly. I'm sure your system is different than mine, but I understand the challenge.




Kevin

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[BoschZEV]

do you know anybody that works for a university that might have access to one? ;-)

Funny you should ask, but I know someone who has two in his lab. So, what's needed is for someone to take the time to hone and to lap a pair of bushes as equivalently as possible. I can personally guarantee that I would be able to convince that university person to section the bushes and examine them for evidence of embedded abrasive. However, not that it matters, but since 500 grit is 14 microns for this he would use an optical metallurgical microscope to generate the metallographs since its resolution is more than adequate at ~0.5 microns.

Is your Cannonball mount ready?

It depends on your definition of "ready"...

I've put ~100 miles on it so far in a few runs where several issues were revealed and dealt with. I also learned the symptoms of gross over-oiling on the first total-loss motorcycle I've ever owned, and learned how not to do that again (I hope...). The last issue I'm currently aware of is too much oil is getting past what someone 90 years ago considered to be an oil "seal." Unless the UPS driver delivers the package to the wrong address (which has happened before), later today I'll have the lip seal that barely fits in the available space for a seal holder I'll machine today. Fingers crossed, an uneventful test ride will take place tomorrow, in which case the stress level will drop to 2 from the current Defcon 1.

[Shaky Jake]

Hi Kevin, the bike is looking great with, aparantly, not too much left to do? You mentioned that the timing case is now all buttoned up so I assume that the improved geometry parts are installed? I will be very interested to hear your reports on how they perform.

The start of your big ride is not too far away so I assume that the next step is some test miles?

What is your departure date for Portland?

John

Hi John,

Yes, the reverse engineered intake cam followers are in. They look great and restore my valve lift and timing back to original. I'll provide details in a later post. I still need to take the front end apart, grease the head stock bearings, check the wheel bearings, brake, etc. Also, I want to improve the headlight so it doesn't need duck tape to hold the lens on, and I want to redesign the compression release linkage so it works a little better, a few things like that. But yes, I hope to do some test miles in the near future. We have to be in Portland on the 4th. I still have some work to do on the moto van. I'm not sure when I'll get to that!




Kevin

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[TechNoir]

Hi Kevin, the bike is looking great with, aparantly, not too much left to do? You mentioned that the timing case is now all buttoned up so I assume that the improved geometry parts are installed? I will be very interested to hear your reports on how they perform.

The start of your big ride is not too far away so I assume that the next step is some test miles?

What is your departure date for Portland?

John

[Shaky Jake]

Apologies for skipping ahead. I will go back and fill in the details, but this is the status of
Patience at this moment. Mag is on, timing set, cam case closed up, valves set, motor pretty much buttoned up other than carb and plugs.








Kevin

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[Shaky Jake]

Not to go too far off the main topic of restoring your Indian, but I've heard this for years about lapping. I realize that "everyone knows" lapping would embed particles in the part being lapped, but does it really? Maybe I haven't spent enough time looking, but what I've not found are metallographs showing that this is actually the case. Is there verifiable evidence showing what "everyone knows" is actually the case, or has it been passed on as "fact" from generation to generation without being tested because it sounds plausible?

Also, since honing uses hard particles held in a binder, why is it a problem to lap a bronze bush but not to hone it? All it would take to answer these questions is to point me to side-by-side metallographs of bronze bushes lapped and honed with, say, 400 grit. This is more than just of academic interest since I own a Sunnen hone (as do you), and I use its (hard) abrasives to fine-tune the IDs of (soft) bronze bushes.

OK, enough of the rhetorical questions. Back to the Indian.

10-4 BZ. Thanks for the comment. That's why I characterized it as a "concern" and "potential" rather than proven fact. It seems like it could happen so we take precautions. My electron microscope is on the fritz so I won't be able to provide any scientific evidence, do you know anybody that works for a university that might have access to one? ;-) I suppose that the art of antique motorcycle maintenance is based more on first and second hand expirience than scientific method. That's why forums like this are so valuable. We're lucky to have them.

Is your Cannonball mount ready? I've been so busy I fallen behind on reading you build blog. From what I've seen your build has been meticulous. Can't wait to see it.




Kevin

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[BoschZEV]

The concern with lapping soft bushings is the potential for the grit to embed into it, which could result in accelerated wear of the shaft.

Not to go too far off the main topic of restoring your Indian, but I've heard this for years about lapping. I realize that "everyone knows" lapping would embed particles in the part being lapped, but does it really? Maybe I haven't spent enough time looking, but what I've not found are metallographs showing that this is actually the case. Is there verifiable evidence showing what "everyone knows" is actually the case, or has it been passed on as "fact" from generation to generation without being tested because it sounds plausible?

Also, since honing uses hard particles held in a binder, why is it a problem to lap a bronze bush but not to hone it? All it would take to answer these questions is to point me to side-by-side metallographs of bronze bushes lapped and honed with, say, 400 grit. This is more than just of academic interest since I own a Sunnen hone (as do you), and I use its (hard) abrasives to fine-tune the IDs of (soft) bronze bushes.

OK, enough of the rhetorical questions. Back to the Indian.

[Shaky Jake]

I got some discussion outside the forum about the lapping of the shift shaft bushing that is worth passing on. I get a fair bit of feedback via email and phone from this forum, and sometimes it's worth sharing.

The concern with lapping soft bushings is the potential for the grit to embed into it, which could result in accelerated wear of the shaft. Obviously, wear is bad, but especially in the case of century old motorcycle parts that we want to preserve. In my suspension, for example, I used Nylatron for the bushings rather than the original steel, to preserve the good original steel shaft that I found.

When you are lapping a harder material, like steel, it is common to use a brass lapping block or barrel lap, that will hold the grit. The grit embeds into the brass and wears away at the steel. My friend Bob, who is a highly experienced machinist and tool and die maker, taught me earlier this year to lap bronze bushings by using diamond lapping compound. You put the compound onto the brass barrel lap, and push it against a piece of carbide to embed the diamond grit into the brass, then you wipe away the remaining lapping compound so that there isn't any left the get embedded into the bushing. I think you can see a piece of 3/4 carbide bar about 4 inches long in one of the pictures I posted, it has some duct tape wrapped around it's ends as handles from when I was using it as a bearing scraper years ago. This method has worked well and I will continue to use it.

As an alternative, my friend Burgie, who restores and maintains old iron for a living, offered up that he uses a product called Timesaver for lapping soft bushings. Apparently it's a powder that you mix with water, and it doesn't embed into the bushing.












I'll probably look for a can and give it a try sometime.



Kevin


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[Shaky Jake]

... and not to mention the paint left on that cast iron case, it definitely belongs on your bike!

Exactly. There ain't no way I'm repainting that one. The bike didn't have a transmission when I got it, but that one looks like it could have been on that bike for years.
Wait till you see the kick starter. It still has a faint ghost of military green.




Kevin

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