Heliman's never; Excellent Alternative Provided

[Chris Haynes]

I have an original excellent condition 1920 HD seat. (Mesinger Cushion Suspension No.1) This came from the HD collection. (my father did about 25 seats for the HD museum many years ago and they gave him this seat)
The still original thread is WHITE. Where it is exposed is has gotten a little dirty and gray, but when a piece of thread is taken out of the leather (where is has been protected) is is white for sure.
Please tell me what can be more accurate than this?

Factory photos that have not been faded like the seat thread has.

[Paquette]

Also-- Factory Production drawings--

[Mark Arnould]

I would like to see some of this documentation on these black and brown threads. I've been in the seat business for 30 years. I don't know everything. However, I do have one of the most extensive original seat and bag collections out there. I collected them years ago when you could still get the best of the best. After carefully inspecting the threads, they are all white except the ones made after 1953. Which are black. I am not trying to run anyone down. I just want to know the truth to better my product as everyone else is striving to do. If someone has proof, I want to see it!. To sew a seat with white thread. You have to be a true master to have it come out looking right and even. Very few can do this. I do know of one individual that used only black thread to cover his inability to sew straight. He is not in business anymore. Please prove to me this is not the case again. I respect everyone in this business who is striving to always better they're product and have always been willing to work together and share knowledge. This way we can ensure that people are getting what is true and correct.
Best Wishes to All
Mark Arnould
Arnould's Saddlery

[Mark Arnould]

White Thread

I would like to see some of this documentation on these black and brown threads. I've been in the seat business for 30 years. I don't know everything. However, I do have one of the most extensive original seat and bag collections out there. I collected them years ago when you could still get the best of the best. After carefully inspecting the threads, they are all white except the ones made after 1953. Which are black. I am not trying to run anyone down. I just want to know the truth to better my product as everyone else is striving to do. If someone has proof, I want to see it!. To sew a seat with white thread. You have to be a true master to have it come out looking right and even. Very few can do this. I do know of one individual that used only black thread to cover his inability to sew straight. He is not in business anymore. Please prove to me this is not the case again. I respect everyone in this business who is striving to always better they're product and have always been willing to work together and share knowledge. This way we can ensure that people are getting what is true and correct.
Best Wishes to All
Mark Arnould
Arnould's Saddlery

[Barry]

Arnould do you have a web site? I would like to talk to you about a set of 1940 Harley bags. Thanks Barry

[Mark Arnould]

Barry
My email is: theleathermaster@gmail.com or you can reach me on my cell 505-307-6413.
Regards
Mark Arnould

[LarryHeil]

Mesinger 1920 Factory production drawings???

Also-- Factory Production drawings--

That is a grreat resource ! I would really like to see these "Mesinger Factory Drawings" for the 1920 era Mesinger Cushion Suspension No. 1 seat. This seat weas used on HDs and many other motorcycles of this era. My Father and I have done a lot of research on these seats, seen hundreds of originals over the last 29 years, and made hundreds of reproductions (using original hardware, new leather), but we have never been able to find the Factory Production drawings for a 1920 Mesinger seat. (or any other Mesinger seat for that matter) Please share this wonderful resource with the rest of the motorcycle restoration community. Saddles by Heilman has always tried to be as acurate as was possible when making our seat reproductions.

[Mark Arnould]

White Tread and Production Drawings

Its amazing how when you ask someone for a little proof, thats the end of it and you don't hear from them again.I am very serious about getting to the bottem of this matter about the white thread. Again, I'm not trying to put anyone on the spot or make anyone look bad. But, if a statement is made that effects the outcome of how correct a persons restoration is. As well as how a few people have made their products as true and correct as they believe for over thirty years. They as well as everyone else in the restoration community expects them to back up what they say. Especially when they're trying to sway the out comes of judges decissions when they judge peoples bikes.
I also think that these 1920's era Messinger factory production drawings are extremly important to the restoration community and think they should be shared.
Regards
Mark Arnould

[Chris Haynes]

Mark,
You will be pleased to know that Paquette is in the process of publishing a book with all this information in it. But if he tells everything here who will buy the book?

[Mark Arnould]

White Tread and Production Drawings

Mark,
You will be pleased to know that Paquette is in the process of publishing a book with all this information in it. But if he tells everything here who will buy the book?

This is good he's working on a book. To me it sounds like the book is revolving around whether or not they used white or black thread and if he exposes this . Noone will buy the book to find out which was used. Thats hardly any substance for a book. All I'm asking is if he can back up his statement concerning white thread. Because its causing alot of people in the business problems over something I believe to be mistaken. This is more than a reasonable request. How long has he been in the seat business anyways? Four or five years? That hardly ranks close to being a master. But, I think Its great he's trying to do research and help better the business. I do ask myself though, "Why hasn't he contacted anyone like myself who is the oldest in the seat business and known as the best, for any input and or suggestions". Myself, I am way to busy and backloged with seat orders to ever dream of or have time to write a book. But, I would be happy to offer some input to help someone thats realitively new to the business that is interested learning. I'm sure I can learn a little from him as well. See, everyone can benifit. After all if he does publish a book. I would like to see it as accurate as possible. And like any good referance book. he should have two or more pieces of reliable proof to back up everything he prints or quotes. Otherwise he's doing more damage than good. I wish him the best with it.

[Chris Haynes]

I can answer the thread color question. I have over 1,500 H-D factory photos going back to the pre teens. No seat is seen with white thread.

[Mark Arnould]

White Thread

I can answer the thread color question. I have over 1,500 H-D factory photos going back to the pre teens. No seat is seen with white thread.

I asked for proof (Several times) not lip service. this is getting very tiering. I would love for you to post a few pictures backing what you say. Lets just pick a few random years: 41 or 42 and 46, 47, 50-52. We all know 53 & later was indeed black. That clearly show the thread color. Anything other than a color photo can be deceptive with the color and I'll understand your misconseption. But, will consider any photo that clearly shows a close up of the tread.
I too have hundereds of early photos. Maybe not quite as many as you. I wasted alot of time trying to find one that shows a clear enough close up of a seat to determine if it is even sewn. Let alone the tread color. My girlfriend went through over a hunderd Entusiest from the early thirties to the early 50's trying to find a photo for me
I don't mean to come across hard nosed. I'm sure your a really nice guy. Actually, I'd like to have the honor of meeting with you someday. But, I quit counting after recovering over three thousand vintage seats through the years. Sounds like alot, not for thirty years full time in the business though. I do know for a fact. One of my busiest years. During the hay days of restoring in the early mid 90's. I recovered over 800 in one year. I just can't believe I was wrong so many times. taking so many apart. mistaking black for white. There are some 1930's that were black or the pigmentation from the leather seeped into the flax fibers. Which are know to do that.
This will probably be my last posting on this matter. I have way too many things to do and nothing to prove to anyone. I'm sure you won't post any proof and at this point don't even think you have it. If you do fine if you don't fine. It just doesn't matter. I know my business way better than anyone out there.
"Its not what they don't know that gets them into trouble". "Its what they know for sure, that ain't so".
Best wishes to everyone in the restoration business thats striving for the truth.
Mark Arnould
Arnould's Saddlery


Best to all those in the business

[Chris Haynes]

Here is 1940

[T. Cotten]

Looks white to me.

I never knew they switched to black!; I always assumed it was shoe polish over the natural linen.


....Cotten
PS: Well preserved seat from a '47 attached.

[Paquette]

Mr. Arnould,
I find it interesting that you find it necessary to attack someone that you know nothing about. FYI, I have been doing leatherwork for 40 odd years and have been doing the research for this book for about 7 years. There are two reasons I have not contacted you for your imput; #1 I have never heard of you and #2 You do not do research based on other people's opinions, you need cold hard FACTS and documentation. I have visited the factory where all H-D seats and saddlebags have been produced since 1933 five times and have copies of factory production drawings and without fail they state black or brown thread used on both seats and bags. I have tried to post a scan but the info is too small to be seen, so if you will send me a PM with your address I will be happy to mail you some info and then you may see for yourself and post to this forum. By the way, the book is hardly just about thread colors as I believe other issues such as when the change from nickle plated rivets to parkerized and then to black japanned steel to attach the binding to the shell assembly ( you probably incorrectly refer to it as a seat pan) occured to name but one. I have been late posting this info as I have been at the Jefferson meet which was fantastic. In closing, I too am way to busy to keep up with work in my shop and write a book, but I am determined to do both so folks like yourself can see the facts--Not opinions of what you think you see--just facts--Michael Paquette--AMCA 6671