Heliman's never; Excellent Alternative Provided

[Paps]

You are looking at an NOS WLA seat. Last pic is before it was removed from the packaging. I borrowed the shots from one of our renowned vendors. Paps

[Chris Haynes]

I am not bickering with anyone. I am simply giving the information available to me from factory documentation and photos. If someone else thinks that a 70-80 old part that has been in the sun and the weather all it life is as it left the factory I have no control over that.

[LarryHeil]

Hard evidence!

Thank you Cotten,
That is my viewpoint too. Physical evidence (yours is great) is the best.
My father and I have seen hundreds of seats over the last 30 years and have a very good iimpression of what was correct and not. We have also done a lot of reasearch in libraries and through old magazines, parts books, and factory brochoures.
We can tell people what we have learned but unfortunately there is little we can show other restorers. Sould have taken more photos over the last years, but photos can be doctored or just not clear about the issue.
Saddles by Heilman strives to be correct as we know but if our customer wants it done differently we will accomodate him. (you want black thread on a seat that we know to have had white thread, that is fine)
Now due to popular demand, Saddles by Heilman is not putting our small logo on the bottom of seats that we restore.

[T. Cotten]

Attached are four more seats that shouldn't exist, according to one or the other of the two conflicting viewpoints offered.

The top left is a pre-war seat with no ventilating holes in the "pan". The binding has disintegrated as so many do, to reveal black thread.

Top right is a WLA seat with "white" thread. (I prefer to call it "natural".)

On the bottom are two '60s seats with 'white' thread, bright enough to have been bleached before waxing.

The fossil record says the experts have a lot more research to do!
It would be very tragic if pieces of history are destroyed and 'restored' based entirely upon revised hearsay, out-of-context documents, or subjective opinions of color in black and white photos. (People have a habit of seeing what they want to see.)

Those who created our history were not as obsessed with perfect conformity as we would make them out to be.

....Cotten

[Mark Arnould]

White Thread

As I said. A black and white picture you can not tell from. example. What color is the paint? Are the spokes plated or painted? What color is the tail light lense in your 40 picture? Gray? We can not tell the thread color in the picture no more than we can say the tail ligth is red in the picture. Is the seat black or tan. Why does the seat pan (shell) have no holes in it? everyone knows they did in 40. Whats up with that? I'm not trying to down grade you or make you look bad. Nor am I trying to get in a pissing match with you. I didn't have time to get pictures of some seats today with white thread. But I'll have someone post them tomorrow on a new thread. This is n't right to keep this going on a Thread with a negative heading against Heilman. You don't have pictures of every bike seat ever made out there to say they never made one with white thread. Lets say some production drawings do exist. Who's to say they were always followed. That certain years they didn't make changes and not revise wording on ther plans. I've seen this case many times. Besides, I've made quote that black may have been posible in the thirties.
These threads aren't designed to be used like there starting to be used for. We shouldn't bicker back and fourth like childern. When I first posted, it was to find out information. not insult anyone or cause hard feelings. I just wanted statements to be backed up. because, I'm getting alot of questions from clients concerning statements you and Parqutte have made. Which I've heard was a really nice guy. This has been getting totally out of hand. So, I tried to call him several times today and my call was never answered.
Not to fight with him or belittle him but to meet him and just to chat. I think its important for the competition to know each other and get along. Theres no reason for us not to get along as every one in this business used to do. After all, we're all striving for the same thing. To make the business better. I hope to meet you as well one day. And hopefully we're just be able to laugh all this off.
Sincerely
Mark Arnould

[Chris Haynes]

[QUOTE=Mark Arnould;I just can't believe I was wrong so many times.[/QUOTE]

You had better believe it. :)

[Chris Haynes]

Here is a factory photo of a 1939.

[Chris Haynes]

Looks white to me.

Cotten,
Ya better get yer glasses fixed. ;-)

[Paquette]

Mr. Arnould,
I find it interesting that you find it necessary to attack someone that you know nothing about. FYI, I have been doing leatherwork for 40 odd years and have been doing the research for this book for about 7 years. There are two reasons I have not contacted you for your imput; #1 I have never heard of you and #2 You do not do research based on other people's opinions, you need cold hard FACTS and documentation. I have visited the factory where all H-D seats and saddlebags have been produced since 1933 five times and have copies of factory production drawings and without fail they state black or brown thread used on both seats and bags. I have tried to post a scan but the info is too small to be seen, so if you will send me a PM with your address I will be happy to mail you some info and then you may see for yourself and post to this forum. By the way, the book is hardly just about thread colors as I believe other issues such as when the change from nickle plated rivets to parkerized and then to black japanned steel to attach the binding to the shell assembly ( you probably incorrectly refer to it as a seat pan) occured to name but one. I have been late posting this info as I have been at the Jefferson meet which was fantastic. In closing, I too am way to busy to keep up with work in my shop and write a book, but I am determined to do both so folks like yourself can see the facts--Not opinions of what you think you see--just facts--Michael Paquette--AMCA 6671

[T. Cotten]

Looks white to me.

I never knew they switched to black!; I always assumed it was shoe polish over the natural linen.


....Cotten
PS: Well preserved seat from a '47 attached.

[Chris Haynes]

Here is 1940

[Mark Arnould]

White Thread

I can answer the thread color question. I have over 1,500 H-D factory photos going back to the pre teens. No seat is seen with white thread.

I asked for proof (Several times) not lip service. this is getting very tiering. I would love for you to post a few pictures backing what you say. Lets just pick a few random years: 41 or 42 and 46, 47, 50-52. We all know 53 & later was indeed black. That clearly show the thread color. Anything other than a color photo can be deceptive with the color and I'll understand your misconseption. But, will consider any photo that clearly shows a close up of the tread.
I too have hundereds of early photos. Maybe not quite as many as you. I wasted alot of time trying to find one that shows a clear enough close up of a seat to determine if it is even sewn. Let alone the tread color. My girlfriend went through over a hunderd Entusiest from the early thirties to the early 50's trying to find a photo for me
I don't mean to come across hard nosed. I'm sure your a really nice guy. Actually, I'd like to have the honor of meeting with you someday. But, I quit counting after recovering over three thousand vintage seats through the years. Sounds like alot, not for thirty years full time in the business though. I do know for a fact. One of my busiest years. During the hay days of restoring in the early mid 90's. I recovered over 800 in one year. I just can't believe I was wrong so many times. taking so many apart. mistaking black for white. There are some 1930's that were black or the pigmentation from the leather seeped into the flax fibers. Which are know to do that.
This will probably be my last posting on this matter. I have way too many things to do and nothing to prove to anyone. I'm sure you won't post any proof and at this point don't even think you have it. If you do fine if you don't fine. It just doesn't matter. I know my business way better than anyone out there.
"Its not what they don't know that gets them into trouble". "Its what they know for sure, that ain't so".
Best wishes to everyone in the restoration business thats striving for the truth.
Mark Arnould
Arnould's Saddlery


Best to all those in the business

[Chris Haynes]

I can answer the thread color question. I have over 1,500 H-D factory photos going back to the pre teens. No seat is seen with white thread.

[Mark Arnould]

White Tread and Production Drawings

Mark,
You will be pleased to know that Paquette is in the process of publishing a book with all this information in it. But if he tells everything here who will buy the book?

This is good he's working on a book. To me it sounds like the book is revolving around whether or not they used white or black thread and if he exposes this . Noone will buy the book to find out which was used. Thats hardly any substance for a book. All I'm asking is if he can back up his statement concerning white thread. Because its causing alot of people in the business problems over something I believe to be mistaken. This is more than a reasonable request. How long has he been in the seat business anyways? Four or five years? That hardly ranks close to being a master. But, I think Its great he's trying to do research and help better the business. I do ask myself though, "Why hasn't he contacted anyone like myself who is the oldest in the seat business and known as the best, for any input and or suggestions". Myself, I am way to busy and backloged with seat orders to ever dream of or have time to write a book. But, I would be happy to offer some input to help someone thats realitively new to the business that is interested learning. I'm sure I can learn a little from him as well. See, everyone can benifit. After all if he does publish a book. I would like to see it as accurate as possible. And like any good referance book. he should have two or more pieces of reliable proof to back up everything he prints or quotes. Otherwise he's doing more damage than good. I wish him the best with it.

[Chris Haynes]

Mark,
You will be pleased to know that Paquette is in the process of publishing a book with all this information in it. But if he tells everything here who will buy the book?