Heliman's never; Excellent Alternative Provided

[Mark Arnould]

White Tread and Production Drawings

Its amazing how when you ask someone for a little proof, thats the end of it and you don't hear from them again.I am very serious about getting to the bottem of this matter about the white thread. Again, I'm not trying to put anyone on the spot or make anyone look bad. But, if a statement is made that effects the outcome of how correct a persons restoration is. As well as how a few people have made their products as true and correct as they believe for over thirty years. They as well as everyone else in the restoration community expects them to back up what they say. Especially when they're trying to sway the out comes of judges decissions when they judge peoples bikes.
I also think that these 1920's era Messinger factory production drawings are extremly important to the restoration community and think they should be shared.
Regards
Mark Arnould

[LarryHeil]

Mesinger 1920 Factory production drawings???

Also-- Factory Production drawings--

That is a grreat resource ! I would really like to see these "Mesinger Factory Drawings" for the 1920 era Mesinger Cushion Suspension No. 1 seat. This seat weas used on HDs and many other motorcycles of this era. My Father and I have done a lot of research on these seats, seen hundreds of originals over the last 29 years, and made hundreds of reproductions (using original hardware, new leather), but we have never been able to find the Factory Production drawings for a 1920 Mesinger seat. (or any other Mesinger seat for that matter) Please share this wonderful resource with the rest of the motorcycle restoration community. Saddles by Heilman has always tried to be as acurate as was possible when making our seat reproductions.

[Mark Arnould]

Barry
My email is: theleathermaster@gmail.com or you can reach me on my cell 505-307-6413.
Regards
Mark Arnould

[Barry]

Arnould do you have a web site? I would like to talk to you about a set of 1940 Harley bags. Thanks Barry

[Mark Arnould]

White Thread

I would like to see some of this documentation on these black and brown threads. I've been in the seat business for 30 years. I don't know everything. However, I do have one of the most extensive original seat and bag collections out there. I collected them years ago when you could still get the best of the best. After carefully inspecting the threads, they are all white except the ones made after 1953. Which are black. I am not trying to run anyone down. I just want to know the truth to better my product as everyone else is striving to do. If someone has proof, I want to see it!. To sew a seat with white thread. You have to be a true master to have it come out looking right and even. Very few can do this. I do know of one individual that used only black thread to cover his inability to sew straight. He is not in business anymore. Please prove to me this is not the case again. I respect everyone in this business who is striving to always better they're product and have always been willing to work together and share knowledge. This way we can ensure that people are getting what is true and correct.
Best Wishes to All
Mark Arnould
Arnould's Saddlery

[Mark Arnould]

I would like to see some of this documentation on these black and brown threads. I've been in the seat business for 30 years. I don't know everything. However, I do have one of the most extensive original seat and bag collections out there. I collected them years ago when you could still get the best of the best. After carefully inspecting the threads, they are all white except the ones made after 1953. Which are black. I am not trying to run anyone down. I just want to know the truth to better my product as everyone else is striving to do. If someone has proof, I want to see it!. To sew a seat with white thread. You have to be a true master to have it come out looking right and even. Very few can do this. I do know of one individual that used only black thread to cover his inability to sew straight. He is not in business anymore. Please prove to me this is not the case again. I respect everyone in this business who is striving to always better they're product and have always been willing to work together and share knowledge. This way we can ensure that people are getting what is true and correct.
Best Wishes to All
Mark Arnould
Arnould's Saddlery

[Paquette]

Also-- Factory Production drawings--

[Chris Haynes]

I have an original excellent condition 1920 HD seat. (Mesinger Cushion Suspension No.1) This came from the HD collection. (my father did about 25 seats for the HD museum many years ago and they gave him this seat)
The still original thread is WHITE. Where it is exposed is has gotten a little dirty and gray, but when a piece of thread is taken out of the leather (where is has been protected) is is white for sure.
Please tell me what can be more accurate than this?

Factory photos that have not been faded like the seat thread has.

[LarryHeil]

Thread Color (1920 HD)

I have an original excellent condition 1920 HD seat. (Mesinger Cushion Suspension No.1) This came from the HD collection. (my father did about 25 seats for the HD museum many years ago and they gave him this seat)
The still original thread is WHITE. Where it is exposed is has gotten a little dirty and gray, but when a piece of thread is taken out of the leather (where is has been protected) is is white for sure.
Please tell me what can be more accurate than this?

[Paquette]

Kevin--I would be happy to share what I know about seats. I do, however, have a ways to go to be able to judge a bike. I'll see you and "Disapperin" at Jefferson---

[kval]

Mike
when we talk about seats, who else would I talk to. maybe we could get you to do a seminar at Rhinebeck next year.
and that is "Disapperin Dan"

[Paquette]

Kevin--I am not sure if your reply is directed at me but I would be most happy to " step up" as you say and give a mini-seminar to judges at any meet to discuss the issues with seats, saddlebags ( I know they are considered accessories) windshield bags, etc. My goal is not only to make correct products but to educate enthusiasts as to what is or is not correct. I will be at Jefferson and maybe you, me and " No Show Dan" can have a conversation!!! ( Maybe you remember that conversation from Oley)--Michael Paquette--6671

[kval]

I have to agree, if I spent all that money I would not want anything that did not belong there. we are all learning about what is correct for the seats and need all the help we can get. if you do not want to judge the whole bike, at least step up and offer to help us with the seats, so we can learn from you.

[Paquette]

I have to agree with Paps on this one. A reproduction seat should have no modern maker's mark, only stamps that would have been original to the factory seat. There are more important issues to look for as far as reproduction quality. Is the thread color correct, neither H-D nor Mesinger used white thread, black seats used black thread, tan and brown seats had brown thread. Are the rivets that hold the leather binding correct? H-D used three different rivet finishes from 1933--today. Is the binding dyed the correct color? Is the edge finish correct for the year of the seat? Is the finish of the leather correct ( here I am thinking of the Rhino grain). Is the padding the correct thickness and material? Is the skirt or apron( if appropriate) the correct material ( leather or pantaline plastic) for the model year? Are the rosettes the correct color and attached with the correct washer and rivets? I have been doing research on this subject for over 7 years and have factory documentation to back my claims.These issues, I believe, are the attention to detail that most often fall by the wayside when bikes are being judged. --Michael Paquette--AMCA-- 6671

[exeric]

I agree that it is not appropriate to sign reproduction work. There are exceptions, such as reproduction that could be misrepresented as genuine but even then, high quality reproduction is usually as expensive as genuine and just as good. If a craftsman feels compelled to sign their work it should only be with the permission of the buyer. I like Howard's seats but I too was ticked off when I saw his hallmarkamp glued to my very expensive Henderson seat.